Donald Trump running for President.
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
![Image](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Henri_graaf_%27t_Kint_de_Roodenbeke%2C_voorzitter_van_de_Senaat%2C_1892-1899.jpg/220px-Henri_graaf_%27t_Kint_de_Roodenbeke%2C_voorzitter_van_de_Senaat%2C_1892-1899.jpg)
Thanks Europe! Glad you're enjoying the show.
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Keep watching, its only going to get better....
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Navigating the oldest and longest standing Constitutional goverment in the world is messy. Democracy is a beautiful mess when it truly reckons with itself and attempts to represent, truly represent, a widely divergent cast of characters.
Those rioters who stormed the Capitol and assaulted police officers should be arrested, tried and jailed per our Constitution. And that's that. And they should be cool with that, if they really beleive in the United States of America that they are "fighting to save"
Otherwise, we have bigger fish to fry. 74 million voted for Trump and half of Republicans think the election was fraudulent. They join the, close to half of Democrats, who thought 2016 Hillary's loss was not "legitimate and accurate." We have a legitimacy problem and the media fans the flames and loves it. Clicks.
Meanwhile, a couple hundred marauders are not going to topple the government, unless the people in power decide so.....
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We're still 232 years and going strong...
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Altogether, 55% of adults in the United States said they believed the Nov. 3 presidential election was "legitimate and accurate," which is down 7 points from a similar poll that ran shortly after the 2016 election. The 28% who said they thought the election was "the result of illegal voting or election rigging" is up 12 points from four years ago.
The poll showed Republicans were much more likely to be suspicious of Trump's loss this year than Democrats were when Hillary Clinton lost four years ago.
In 2016, 52% of Democrats said Hillary Clinton's loss to Trump was "legitimate and accurate," even as reports emerged of Russian attempts to influence the outcome. This year, only 26% of Republicans said they thought Trump's loss was similarly legitimate.
The Reuters/Ipsos poll was conducted online, in English, throughout the United States. It gathered responses from 1,346 respondents, including 598 Democrats and 496 Republicans, and has a credibility interval, a measure of precision, of 5 percentage points.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... SKBN27Y1AJ
- Pandemonium
- Posts: 5724
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:18 pm
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Some thoughts after yesterdays events:
Trump crossed a big line the past few weeks culminating in yesterday unquestionably inciting his idiot followers to essentially storm the Capitol to at least interfere with the House's procedures to confirm Biden's win. There were actually some people in full military gear armed with zip-ties roaming the building looking for McConnell, Pence and Pelosi. They weren't looking to shake their hands.
I hear a lot of people whining about how light the initial response was against the protestors/rioters/seditionists was yesterday versus say dispersing the so-called peaceful protest in DC when Trump made his infamous photo op with the bible in front of the church. My response to that is look at the photos of the unarmed woman who was shot and killed by police/secret service after breaking into the Capital building. Second, I think police was put in a bad position having to not escalate the situation, which despite the one woman being shot, eventually was resolved peacefully in just a few hours. Had there been a massive shoot out with casualties, this would have infinitely inflamed the situation that would linger for years to come.
Bad as it was, it could have been infinitely worse, and quite honestly, the worst may yet be to come. There is a lot of extremism on both sides - we've seen it from the fringe Left over last Summer, now we saw what the far Right is capable of.
There is serious talk of a fast track impeachment or even invoking the 25 Amendment to remove Trump. IMO, the only reason it hasn't happened is two reasons:
(1) No one really wants to be a part of, much less have it on the nations historical record that we had to shitcan a sitting President, especially barely 2 weeks before he's out of office. It's already too close to a crappy House Of Cards episode.
(2) You can bet today's events put the fear of God in a good number of politicians with the realization that there actually is a significant enough number of whackos out there ready to attempt to overthrow the government or at least create a lot of chaos. This wasn't faceless internet entities spouting off, this was thousands of bodies pounding on the doors of the Capital right in front of their naked steamin' eyes. Removing Trump especially now would unquestionably add fuel to the fire, confirming to these idiots that the election was "stolen" and I have to believe a lot in Washington are scared shitless of that happening.
I can only guess at what behind the scenes work in progress to somehow minimalize Trump and his influence for the next two weeks until he's legitimately out of office without actually declaring him unfit for office. I wouldn't be surprised if Pence is really minding the store and has the nuke codes now. The challenge after January is going to be how to keep Trump and his merry band of fruitcases going forward the next few years from creating further chaos, especially within the now-severely crippled Republican party.
About the only good thing I think can be taken away from this is those in the highest levels of Washington politics got a taste of the fact they aren't completely isolated and above from the American public in their seat of power.
Trump crossed a big line the past few weeks culminating in yesterday unquestionably inciting his idiot followers to essentially storm the Capitol to at least interfere with the House's procedures to confirm Biden's win. There were actually some people in full military gear armed with zip-ties roaming the building looking for McConnell, Pence and Pelosi. They weren't looking to shake their hands.
I hear a lot of people whining about how light the initial response was against the protestors/rioters/seditionists was yesterday versus say dispersing the so-called peaceful protest in DC when Trump made his infamous photo op with the bible in front of the church. My response to that is look at the photos of the unarmed woman who was shot and killed by police/secret service after breaking into the Capital building. Second, I think police was put in a bad position having to not escalate the situation, which despite the one woman being shot, eventually was resolved peacefully in just a few hours. Had there been a massive shoot out with casualties, this would have infinitely inflamed the situation that would linger for years to come.
Bad as it was, it could have been infinitely worse, and quite honestly, the worst may yet be to come. There is a lot of extremism on both sides - we've seen it from the fringe Left over last Summer, now we saw what the far Right is capable of.
There is serious talk of a fast track impeachment or even invoking the 25 Amendment to remove Trump. IMO, the only reason it hasn't happened is two reasons:
(1) No one really wants to be a part of, much less have it on the nations historical record that we had to shitcan a sitting President, especially barely 2 weeks before he's out of office. It's already too close to a crappy House Of Cards episode.
(2) You can bet today's events put the fear of God in a good number of politicians with the realization that there actually is a significant enough number of whackos out there ready to attempt to overthrow the government or at least create a lot of chaos. This wasn't faceless internet entities spouting off, this was thousands of bodies pounding on the doors of the Capital right in front of their naked steamin' eyes. Removing Trump especially now would unquestionably add fuel to the fire, confirming to these idiots that the election was "stolen" and I have to believe a lot in Washington are scared shitless of that happening.
I can only guess at what behind the scenes work in progress to somehow minimalize Trump and his influence for the next two weeks until he's legitimately out of office without actually declaring him unfit for office. I wouldn't be surprised if Pence is really minding the store and has the nuke codes now. The challenge after January is going to be how to keep Trump and his merry band of fruitcases going forward the next few years from creating further chaos, especially within the now-severely crippled Republican party.
About the only good thing I think can be taken away from this is those in the highest levels of Washington politics got a taste of the fact they aren't completely isolated and above from the American public in their seat of power.
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Pandemonium wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:02 am(snip!)
About the only good thing I think can be taken away from this is those in the highest levels of Washington politics got a taste of the fact they aren't completely isolated and above from the American public in their seat of power.
![nod :nod:](./images/smilies/nod.gif)
(I couldn't say that because it would look like I supported the marauders...i do not....but.....exactly.)
A lot of those elected folks are bastards in there who have no freakin concept of the vast responsibility that is entrusted in them, like really understand, not just say they do.
Having said that, I've been to DC in the halls of Congress myself, even met Pelosi in the hallway while lobbying for an NGO (HabitatFH), and I will say there are a lot of really smart/dedicated politicians as well, who are honestly doing the best job they can under the circumstances.
Big wake up is right.
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Re: Donald Trump running for President.
I just think yesterday has speed along our suffering...we cut to the chase, had our moment and while some will carry on, I feel as a whole we will start to heal faster than if yesterday didn't happen.....nothing changed yesterday....a building was charged...people left it...police cleared it...people came back....business handled...it was a child throwing a temper tantrum....dinner was put off...but at the end of the day everyone still ate
The biggest part of it all as americans, to me, is this was "us" we need to grow from it...I think a lot of the rights fears are that the left is gonna take their life...I don't want to move to the south just as much as they don't wanna move to LA....the america thing just fucks it up...we are the United States of america....if people just thought of the continent of north america and below Canada and above mexico as 48 different countries...we'd be better off...that and education along with the seperation of church and state but I digress....
The biggest part of it all as americans, to me, is this was "us" we need to grow from it...I think a lot of the rights fears are that the left is gonna take their life...I don't want to move to the south just as much as they don't wanna move to LA....the america thing just fucks it up...we are the United States of america....if people just thought of the continent of north america and below Canada and above mexico as 48 different countries...we'd be better off...that and education along with the seperation of church and state but I digress....
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Try like....60 countries.....
East Oregon. West Oregon...doesnt cali already propose like 5 states in itself?
Or really like 30 if we just redrew the whole thing.
Jefferson...etc
![noclue :noclue:](./images/smilies/confused-smiley-013.gif)
East Oregon. West Oregon...doesnt cali already propose like 5 states in itself?
Or really like 30 if we just redrew the whole thing.
Jefferson...etc
- Pandemonium
- Posts: 5724
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:18 pm
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
It looks like the endgame is impeaching Trump a second time in the coming months (it can be done after he's out of office) in the hope they get a full vote that would prevent him from running for office ever again. Too many of his Cabinet crony picks are jumping ship to get out of that sinking ship to make removing him by invoking the 25th Amendment a viable option this close to Biden's inauguration. Of course, there's the ongoing talk Trump will "Pardon himself and his family" but it's unclear how or even if that works.
Speaking of which, it's becoming very likely Biden will not have a traditional big open outdoor public ceremony on Jan 20th. There's a lot of chatter online from Right-wing groups of one last big disruption in DC for that event and all it takes is one nutcase with a pipe bomb or gun getting close enough. As I mentioned a couple days ago, politicians got pretty shaken up how easily the Capitol was breached and I think you'll see a huge overabundance of security and caution for the swearing in.
Speaking of which, it's becoming very likely Biden will not have a traditional big open outdoor public ceremony on Jan 20th. There's a lot of chatter online from Right-wing groups of one last big disruption in DC for that event and all it takes is one nutcase with a pipe bomb or gun getting close enough. As I mentioned a couple days ago, politicians got pretty shaken up how easily the Capitol was breached and I think you'll see a huge overabundance of security and caution for the swearing in.
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
From my perspective, Trump has never held as much leverage with the WHOLE Congress in his entire tenure then he does today, and possibly over the weekend.Pandemonium wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:42 am..........
Of course, there's the ongoing talk Trump will "Pardon himself and his family" but it's unclear how or even if that works.
....
All parties would like to see nothing more than for Trump to just resign. I bet he could get immunity for himself and family if he agreed to resign walk away by this weekend....maybe he even agrees to not run again.
74 Million people is A LOT of people who just voted for him....even after these 4 years of Trump. He is very very big.
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Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Ya he'll walk by Monday...he'd lose his pension, travel stipend and most importantly the secret service....
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
So much winning
- Pandemonium
- Posts: 5724
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:18 pm
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Impeachment articles drawn up and to be presented on Monday.
Bidens inauguration likely to be "Virtual."
Serious threats of unrest in DC prior to the inauguration:
![Image](https://i.postimg.cc/NjPGLJLb/box-VFl-A5-TIOKl-Vxx-LSv-AWA.jpg)
Bidens inauguration likely to be "Virtual."
Serious threats of unrest in DC prior to the inauguration:
![Image](https://i.postimg.cc/NjPGLJLb/box-VFl-A5-TIOKl-Vxx-LSv-AWA.jpg)
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Mayhem Inside the Capitol:40 minutes of footage (you have to sign on youtube)
I saw this video on the Open Culture site.
https://www.openculture.com/2021/01/the ... h4UsZ8rEhk
" Reporter Ryan Lizza writes: “I don’t think I fully understood what happened Wednesday until I watched this video. It’s long and includes the shooting of one of the rioters, but you will have a new appreciation of the demented psychology coursing through this mob.” This is the insurrection that Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, Mo Brooks and others incited and cheered on. They’ll hopefully pay a steep price.
Warning: The shooting of the rioter is shown at the beginning, and again at the end–except the footage at the end is graphic and not greyed out."
A dude,JaydenX, filming from the inside.
I saw this video on the Open Culture site.
https://www.openculture.com/2021/01/the ... h4UsZ8rEhk
" Reporter Ryan Lizza writes: “I don’t think I fully understood what happened Wednesday until I watched this video. It’s long and includes the shooting of one of the rioters, but you will have a new appreciation of the demented psychology coursing through this mob.” This is the insurrection that Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, Mo Brooks and others incited and cheered on. They’ll hopefully pay a steep price.
Warning: The shooting of the rioter is shown at the beginning, and again at the end–except the footage at the end is graphic and not greyed out."
A dude,JaydenX, filming from the inside.
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Re: Donald Trump running for President.
They're going to be occupying a Wendy's in the suburbs because they're not going to be able to get within 20 miles.Pandemonium wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:31 pmImpeachment articles drawn up and to be presented on Monday.
Bidens inauguration likely to be "Virtual."
Serious threats of unrest in DC prior to the inauguration:
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- nausearockpig
- Posts: 3911
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:03 pm
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
SO strange how they got all that way into the building originally though isn't it? I wonder what that's all about?
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
confirmation bias.
Nobody in DC with power believed that such people would do such a thing, literally never entered their minds. Even though it just happened at state capitols in Michigan and Oregon along with other states.
Confirmation bias is present all the time in everything we do. Anyone is "able" to do a shit ton of illegal or unseemly things all the time, they just normally don't....![noclue :noclue:](./images/smilies/confused-smiley-013.gif)
Honestly I hope that nothing substantially changes regarding security. That is the people's Capitol, not the plutocrat's Capitol. Let the people and the Constitution decide what happens to those who disrupt the people's business.
Nobody in DC with power believed that such people would do such a thing, literally never entered their minds. Even though it just happened at state capitols in Michigan and Oregon along with other states.
Confirmation bias is present all the time in everything we do. Anyone is "able" to do a shit ton of illegal or unseemly things all the time, they just normally don't....
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Honestly I hope that nothing substantially changes regarding security. That is the people's Capitol, not the plutocrat's Capitol. Let the people and the Constitution decide what happens to those who disrupt the people's business.
Last edited by mockbee on Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- nausearockpig
- Posts: 3911
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:03 pm
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
ok.. but i also mean, why didn't the many and various lawmen in the building remove and arrest these people once they got in? too many people? get more lawmen in.......
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
First do no harm. If people were shooting or brandished guns they would have beem shot.
Otherwise descalate, thats what happened.![noclue :noclue:](./images/smilies/confused-smiley-013.gif)
Also if you've never been to DC. Capitol police/security are no Navy SEAL types, more Mall Cop , on the spectrum of things....![thumb :thumb:](./images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Otherwise descalate, thats what happened.
![noclue :noclue:](./images/smilies/confused-smiley-013.gif)
Also if you've never been to DC. Capitol police/security are no Navy SEAL types, more Mall Cop , on the spectrum of things....
![thumb :thumb:](./images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Looks like McConnell has made some sort of agreement to have the Senate run out the clock....
Two House impeachmentss and will fail again in the Senate after Trump's term expires.
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Two House impeachmentss and will fail again in the Senate after Trump's term expires.
![noclue :noclue:](./images/smilies/confused-smiley-013.gif)
- nausearockpig
- Posts: 3911
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:03 pm
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
I would've thought it was illegal for those rioters to enter that building as and when they did, in the way they did, and destroy property, and enter those offices etc. Yet they were allowed to enter? And do all the shit they did before they were shut down? that seems wrong.
From what I've heard, back in December, certain law enforcement agencies were aware of the impending action. That being what it is, it seems strange the Capitol police were not informed and were caught blindsided. From the faraway where we are, it kinds looks like the rioters were allowed to get a certain way in before the CaPolice and others reacted. Just seems very odd, is all.
I'm sure I've got it all wrong and the CaPols did all they could as they could....
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Of course it was illegal what they did, and they were told to stay back and not to enter the premises. There were temporary barricades up and police gaurding all points of access. They were overpowered by hundreds of people who didn't appear to be armed with guns who forced their way through. What were the police supposed to do? Shoot them all? Contrary to popular opinion we don't live in an authoritarian state. Unless something goes terribly, terribly wrong, that would thankfully never, ever happen.nausearockpig wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:08 am
I would've thought it was illegal for those rioters to enter that building as and when they did, in the way they did, and destroy property, and enter those offices etc. Yet they were allowed to enter? And do all the shit they did before they were shut down? that seems wrong.
Even if they were armed with guns, again, confirmation bias comes into play. It's the 9/11 moment. Even though "intelligence" screams this scenario is possible, even likely, if it hasn't happened we don't prepare for it. Even with preparations, I don't know if there would be any stopping the mob if they insisted/forced their way through. I dont know if you followed the events in Portland over the Summer, but that exact "impenetrable" 7' high black fence put up after the riot, that now completely surrounds the Capitol was erected around the Federal Courthouse here. I started cracking up when I saw it being put up. That same fence was breached by about a hundred rioters after a couple nights of protest here in Portland. Should all the rioters be slaughtered by police after forcefully hopping a fence?
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We don't live in that kind of country. And I hope we never do. That would be a TRUE authoritarian government and a much more scary place to live in.
Here's how it all began. This event is not a revolution. It's a wake up call. 74 million people just voted for Trump and half of those think the election was a fraud.
Whose fault is that?
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I'll give you a hint. I wouldn't beleive the source that tells you whose fault it is.
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![noclue :noclue:](./images/smilies/confused-smiley-013.gif)
(and no, I didn't just tell you....
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[tweet]https://twitter.com/philipindc/status/1 ... 00961?s=21[/tweet]
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Like Nausea, I don't understand how the rioters got as far as they did. Yes, the large number overwhelmed the police there but, I would think that there are people in the government whose job it is to monitor social media, and various hate groups to keep tabs on what they're doing. If some of the rioters flew in from other cities and drove many hours, the riot wasn't a spontaneous event. Security should have been increased. I know it's easy to say that AFTER the fact, but it looked way too easy to get in.
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Defund the police they said
- Pandemonium
- Posts: 5724
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:18 pm
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Like Mockbee said, the Capitol internal security force are basically glorified mall cops. The problem was whatever security and law enforcement was posted *outside* the Capitol. There was plenty of chatter online in the days and weeks before this happened giving them plenty of time to have a more than adequate plan for dealing with a possible violent mob. Obviously, there was a major underestimation of how large and how far this mob would go once they were plenty inflamed. IMO, there's a combination of several key things that led to the storming of the Capitol that include Trump and Co not authorizing the needed resources in the days leading up to and during the actual siege, a complete breakdown of planning and response within the command structure of the resources that *were* in place, and some sympathetic to Trump within the policing and security.Artemis wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:08 amLike Nausea, I don't understand how the rioters got as far as they did. Yes, the large number overwhelmed the police there but, I would think that there are people in the government whose job it is to monitor social media, and various hate groups to keep tabs on what they're doing. If some of the rioters flew in from other cities and drove many hours, the riot wasn't a spontaneous event. Security should have been increased. I know it's easy to say that AFTER the fact, but it looked way too easy to get in.
To a large degree the poor response is due to Trump and his people purposely hobbling any sort of real security for that day. That in itself could certainly be interpreted as a planned and organized insurrection against the US Government far beyond Trump inciting his believers with thinly veiled rhetoric. There certainly was a difference in the planning, scale of security and response used between Wednesday and the protesting last Summer when Trump did his idiotic Bible photo op.
One last thing: It was very telling a few weeks ago that Military officials said they wouldn't be a part of any effort to become involved in any attempt by Trump to overturn the election. Think about it - there was word floating around that this was even a possibility and it was felt a disclaimer needed to be issued. I'd guess it was likely Trump and his people were discreetly contacting leaders of the various branches about backing him ... that's more or less a banana republic attempt at a coup.
Re: Donald Trump running for President.
Excellent point! That was a hug hint for sure.Pandemonium wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:59 am
One last thing: It was very telling a few weeks ago that Military officials said they wouldn't be a part of any effort to become involved in any attempt by Trump to overturn the election. Think about it - there was word floating around that this was even a possibility and it was felt a disclaimer needed to be issued. I'd guess it was likely Trump and his people were discreetly contacting leaders of the various branches about backing him ... that's more or less a banana republic attempt at a coup.