Emma Watson and equality

[SR]

As much as all the boys comments are welcome, and I didn't embed the video for teasers sake, I'm sad no women here chose not to chime in

[farrellgirl99]

Sorry SR, haven't been on the board

I thought the video was fine - nothing groundbreaking, nothing controversial. It was a cool view and brought out some very real and disheartening statistics that maybe people don't know. I think anything that may get catch people's eye is a good thing. I'm sure those girls will be proud they were a part of that when they are a bit older and the issues they are talking about hold a bit more gravity to them.

It's essential that we break down stereotypes about how women should act - ie being pure, virginal, princesses, docile, etc. So i applaud the video for outwardly stepping on the stereotype of princesses, even if its done in a somewhat heavy handed way.

Unrelated, but I was faced with some good ol fashioned sexism last night at a bar. My sister, her husband, and myself were having a conversation at a bar about consent and how it could be best taught to teenagers (my brother in law is a guidance counselor). This is only relevant because I thought it was ironic we were talking about an issue as important as consent and how boys (and girls) can best be taught how to confront this issue when they are engaging in consensual sex. ANYWAY. This bartender comes over, interrupts without hearing anything other than the word "women" im sure, and yells "women suck!" And I said "excuse me" and he said "women suck. trust me, ive dated enough women. especially during that one week a month. theyre impossible." i told him he should stop talking cause he was hurting his tips. He then said "he'd make up for it with tips from the men" and smiled at my brother in law. I was kinda dumbfounded at the whole thing. I know bartenders try to get tips by engaging customers but why did this guy think this was a sensible way to gain tips from two women? And why would he ever think it was okay to yell women suck? Or rehash a RIDICULOUS sterotype about pmsing. I couldnt believe it. This is a bar we go to a lot although we have never had this bartender. If it wasnt a bar I frequent, I would never go back. Although if he is ever bartending again, I will walk out. For the remainder of our time there, he handled off his duties to another bartender and never came back near us so he knew he had fucked up, if only his tips.

Anyway, I share this because this is the type of pervasive, jokey sexism that is accepted all the time. Is it violent? Is it hyper aggressive? Did I feel threatened? No, no, and no. But it made me feel uncomfortable and it's ignorant. It's these little things that continue to be accepted because it's a "joke" and women who don't think those kind of jokes are funny or who get offended are the uptight bitches, right?

Okay, I'll stop now I have to get ready. But I hope that made some sense.

[Hype]

Usually when people say "____ suck." where the blank is pluralized or universalized, what they really mean is "I have experienced things I don't like when around people who are ____, and therefore I associate the causes of the things I dislike with _____."

Or, alternatively, they are really just saying "I'm a stupid moron who can't figure out why shit doesn't always go exactly the way I want it."

[LJF]

I don't want to detract from the main point of the thread, but I do want to note that I'm glad LJF sees the rationale behind that video as I do, and I also think it's interesting given our past disagreements, that his reasoning seems to have involved a direct relation to his own life (which some studies have shown is precisely the way in which conservatives tend to decide issues like this... gay marriage is wrong until you see your Uncle Steve and his loving partner being human... etc.).

No problem with gay marriage either, as far as I know I don't have an uncle Steve and no relatives of mine are gay. My daughter isn't he only reason why I have no problem with the video.

[Hype]

I don't want to detract from the main point of the thread, but I do want to note that I'm glad LJF sees the rationale behind that video as I do, and I also think it's interesting given our past disagreements, that his reasoning seems to have involved a direct relation to his own life (which some studies have shown is precisely the way in which conservatives tend to decide issues like this... gay marriage is wrong until you see your Uncle Steve and his loving partner being human... etc.).

No problem with gay marriage either, as far as I know I don't have an uncle Steve and no relatives of mine are gay. My daughter isn't he only reason why I have no problem with the video.

Interesting. Well, that's a good sign then... public policy should never be supported or governed by what happens to suit people only because they happen to be personally affected by it.

[Essence_Smith]

That bartender was beyond a dumb ass...every guy with sense knows you should be ultra nice to women drinking alcohol...
I'm being a knucklehead of course, but seriously that's just some dumb shit...not just sexist...just stupid...

On topic...women don't have to be docile, girly or whatever... and of course the construct is that women are somehow supposed to be softer, etc...ok, this doesn't have to be the case, but what then defines femininity? If I'm trying to explain to a child for example, the difference between being masculine and being feminine, where is the line where you could call one's description of the idea of the latter sexist?

[Hype]

That bartender was beyond a dumb ass...every guy with sense knows you should be ultra nice to women drinking alcohol...
I'm being a knucklehead of course, but seriously that's just some dumb shit...not just sexist...just stupid...

On topic...women don't have to be docile, girly or whatever... and of course the construct is that women are somehow supposed to be softer, etc...ok, this doesn't have to be the case, but what then defines femininity? If I'm trying to explain to a child for example, the difference between being masculine and being feminine, where is the line where you could call one's description of the idea of the latter sexist?

The problem with the terms 'masculine' and 'feminine' is that they don't allow or any nuance. People also confuse them for 'macho' and 'pansy'. But people are not monoliths that all fall into one of two categories. A man may be 'masculine' in the sense that he is tall and has big muscles, and yet he might like to knit or care for children. A woman may look like a waif and yet love monster truck rallies... And why would worrying about any of this even matter?

[farrellgirl99]

and back to street harassment...this video has been making the rounds today. i think my position on this is clear already.

[Larry B.]

Do stuff like "beautiful" still counts as 'street harassment'?

My problem with that sort of thing is that it strips the wrod from its meaning. When you say 'harassment', I think of the guy following her for 5 minutes, or someone touching her butt, or someone saying more violent stuff like "I'm gonna do you real good, momma", something like that. It's like when some people talk about "eye rape" because some guy looked at their breasts; it's a dangerous practice because 'rape' is something quite specific, and extremely different from looking at someone's breasts from 5 feet away.

[Essence_Smith]

Do stuff like "beautiful" still counts as 'street harassment'?

My problem with that sort of thing is that it strips the wrod from its meaning. When you say 'harassment', I think of the guy following her for 5 minutes, or someone touching her butt, or someone saying more violent stuff like "I'm gonna do you real good, momma", something like that. It's like when some people talk about "eye rape" because some guy looked at their breasts; it's a dangerous practice because 'rape' is something quite specific, and extremely different from looking at someone's breasts from 5 feet away.

There are levels to this kind of thing and I'll go back to what I've told my girls at home...this is NY and you're going to get attention from males whether you ask for it or not. It doesn't matter if you're wearing a mini skirt or big baggy sweats guys here are over the top and it happens all the time 24-7. Not fair, but life in general isn't fair and like virtually every other aspect of living in this city you have to develop thick skin to deal with it. I am with Larry here...hey beautiful imo is NOT harassment. It may definitely be unwanted attention, but next to the guy who walked beside her for 5 minutes, clearly it's not.

Hey baby doesn't work...but I did meet my wife walking down the street one day. I made a few quiet attempts to make eye contact and she completely didn't pay me any mind...
By like the 4th time I tried getting her attention she noticed me and said hello to me and I struck up a conversation...we actually made a date that night and the rest is history. My point is when done politely I think approaching a woman on the street is fine and I think while it certainly may be annoying as hell it's part of life in NY...things like that dude following her are NOT cool, but it happens...

Another NY thing...I'm listening to Z100 a local station here (that I don't normally listen to) and they're talking about the princess video and the female morning show host says that she liked it and how women are taught that when they're angry it's not ok to express it, etc...and I can't lie the first thing that popped into my head was...not black women...now at the risk of playing playing with stereotypes I would venture to say that in general minority women are let's say slightly more assertive when it comes to expressing their frustration than a lot of white women are. I may be way off, but I think culture can also play a huge role in how women view and handle certain situations...i.e. to a white woman hey baby is harassment...to a black woman hey baby is a dude trying to "holla"...my wife is mixed, more latin than anything else and she told me that she learned to tune it out after a while and that the only ones that annoyed her were the guys that would actually curse when you didn't respond...she said the woman in the youtube video should put on something baggy or just realize that this is NY...I don't necessarily agree, but I didn't say anything to her because my wife like the women I mentioned before has NO problem asserting her feelings of anger or frustration...

[Hype]

Point is, guys don't have to go through that shit, or do anything extra to literally just exist on the planet outside of one's house. Pragmatic or prudential rules are fine, except they don't really work, and they're precisely part of what shows that women aren't treated equally with men, which isn't to say that women should be treated *as* men, but just that in cases like this, you're saying something like: "That's NY for you", or "wear baggy clothing" is effectively just saying "Men and culture can't change. Women have to adapt." But that's kind of crazy... it's only a hop and a skip away from Saudi Arabian "prudence" which says that women can't leave the house without a male family member, or drive, or be seen in restaurants, because that will tempt men.

[Essence_Smith]

Point is, guys don't have to go through that shit, or do anything extra to literally just exist on the planet outside of one's house. Pragmatic or prudential rules are fine, except they don't really work, and they're precisely part of what shows that women aren't treated equally with men, which isn't to say that women should be treated *as* men, but just that in cases like this, you're saying something like: "That's NY for you", or "wear baggy clothing" is effectively just saying "Men and culture can't change. Women have to adapt." But that's kind of crazy... it's only a hop and a skip away from Saudi Arabian "prudence" which says that women can't leave the house without a male family member, or drive, or be seen in restaurants, because that will tempt men.

You're missing my point...I'm not saying that the status quo is ok, or that women should cover up...my wife suggested that...all I'm saying is that this is happening, period. Regardless of what a woman wears it's going to happen. Not saying it's right, fair or can't change, but it does happen. NY in particular is amazing for it because I've seen virtually every culture you can imagine do their own version of "hey baby"...so obviously this happens pretty much everywhere, but imo guys here are a little more aggressive with it. To the woman's credit she did state that the have a good evening's and hey beautiful's she didn't necessarily have a problem with...and with appearing as an advocate a small part of why guys do this is because at some point some woman responded to it and they feel like it could work... my experience has shown me that the women that will actually respond to the cat calls are NOT the one's you want...

So I'll ask again...man walking down the street and sees a pretty girl...is he ALLOWED to pay her a compliment?
And I'm not talking about the dumb ass cat calls...I'm talking about a sincere statement like "excuse me, I don't mean anything funny, but you look lovely...have a wonderful day" or something to that effect, is that allowed or does this somehow fall under the "harassment" umbrella too? Yes, I'm being a bit of a jerk about it, but please don't take my earlier statements the step further to say that's its anywhere near Saudi Arabia...I have daughters at home who unfortunately also have to deal with hey baby, etc... and dudes following them, etc...so again I'm not good with it in general...but I do think people need to make the distinction between what I consider unwanted attention which is fairly harmless and straight up harassment. Police used to "harass" me on the regular and I didn't appreciate it, but I also didn't take offense to someone telling me that's how it is because, that's how it is...

[Larry B.]

Just the other day I was sat watching a football match by myself when this woman, must've been around 25, keep giving me an eye every once in a while. I pretended I hadn't noticed her, since I was wearing shades. At one point, she stood from her seat and sat right beside me (it wasn't crowded by any means), and just kept watching the game. She sort of commented a couple of things and I just nodded. Then, I started a conversation and everything was fine, obviously.

My point is, could I say she was harassing me? Would a woman say I was harassing her if I did that? Looking at her about 4 times within 5 minutes (which would imply turning my head around, since I'd be 5 rows in front of her), then sat next to her and try to push a conversation?

[Hype]

So I'll ask again...man walking down the street and sees a pretty girl...is he ALLOWED to pay her a compliment?

Yes, of course. It's a free country, but likewise, critics are free to consider whether such behaviour is indicative of underlying inequalities and difficulties for women in particular.

It used to be normal for women to be basically systematically harassed in the workplace. The stories I've heard from my parents/their friends about how it was back in the 1970s are mind-boggling. But now we have workplace harassment laws that help quite a bit, so women aren't pressured into pretending that being inundated with innuendo and inappropriate comments (not to mention insinuating that promotions are available for certain sorts of "submissive" behaviour) is fine. If you're worried that we should have laws about public speech involving catcalls, etc, well, no, I don't think that would be fair, in the same way that I can't stop anyone from saying anything they want to or about me on the street (though there are libel/slander laws, etc.). But the question of whether women face an inordinate amount of this kind of annoyance on a daily basis, and to what degree this ought to be considered tolerable or polite or acceptable behaviour is another question. It's sort of like the rules about not dating coworkers or subordinates. There are always exceptions that get brought up, like that one couple who started dating when the guy was a grad student and the girl was an undergraduate, or that one time a prof managed to have a good relationship with a female graduate student that eventually led to marriage, etc. But these kinds of cases don't excuse the reasons why it's in general not a good idea to engage in this kind of behaviour, or to encourage it, or try to justify it. The question is how much inequality or stress or danger is too much to be tolerated as a matter of social etiquette (not, as I say, a matter of law -- groping, rape, stalking, etc. are all already illegal) when it's directed at one specific half of the population? And isn't it interesting how much resistance even questioning the norms we already have faces?

[Essence_Smith]

The question is how much inequality or stress or danger is too much to be tolerated as a matter of social etiquette (not, as I say, a matter of law -- groping, rape, stalking, etc. are all already illegal) when it's directed at one specific half of the population? And isn't it interesting how much resistance even questioning the norms we already have faces?

My question about compliments was rhetorical and of course we're all allowed to consider "cat calling" in a conversation about inequality. Part of why I take the position I do on some of these matters is in part because I'm playing devil's advocate. On the other side, personally I think a LOT of men are completely CLUELESS on how to get a woman's attention and this aspect of the conversation interests me in particular because growing up I didn't do any cat calling but I definitely approached females I didn't know on the street, got phone numbers etc. I think it has it's place and I don't see that being put forth aside from Larry who asked if "hey beautiful" is harassment. Trust that I have seen dudes do some vile shit in my time and with nods to SR it doesn't make it universal either way, but I think while you're considering all of this, men trying to get women's attention on the street shouldn't always be looked at as a bad thing imo...that being said I'm not sure how we go about changing situations like the guy who followed that woman for blocks and blocks...

[Hype]

The question is how much inequality or stress or danger is too much to be tolerated as a matter of social etiquette (not, as I say, a matter of law -- groping, rape, stalking, etc. are all already illegal) when it's directed at one specific half of the population? And isn't it interesting how much resistance even questioning the norms we already have faces?

My question about compliments was rhetorical and of course we're all allowed to consider "cat calling" in a conversation about inequality. Part of why I take the position I do on some of these matters is in part because I'm playing devil's advocate. On the other side, personally I think a LOT of men are completely CLUELESS on how to get a woman's attention and this aspect of the conversation interests me in particular because growing up I didn't do any cat calling but I definitely approached females I didn't know on the street, got phone numbers etc. I think it has it's place and I don't see that being put forth aside from Larry who asked if "hey beautiful" is harassment. Trust that I have seen dudes do some vile shit in my time and with nods to SR it doesn't make it universal either way, but I think while you're considering all of this, men trying to get women's attention on the street shouldn't always be looked at as a bad thing imo...that being said I'm not sure how we go about changing situations like the guy who followed that woman for blocks and blocks...

When I was in primary school, I have a distinct memory of being taught social skills, like... as a very specific thing. We were taught how to treat other people with respect, and what we ought to expect from others. I agree you probably can't easily change the attitudes of a grown-ass man who doesn't know how to treat other people like (as Immanuel Kant would say) "ends in themselves". But you can definitely teach kids these things with a lot of success.

Germany has had a pretty good deal of success with eradicating xenophobia from its culture, after WW2... though there's still the odd rise in hatred of the Turks, etc., that pops up... but they did it through a combination of teaching kids and putting up a lot of signs in public, as well as criminalizing certain kinds of publication.

[Hype]

This could go in this thread or the white privilege thread, but it's a pretty good example of how odd it would be for a white male to experience the same kind of thing that many many women experience on a daily basis: http://www.funnyordie.com/articles/ebf5 ... c-as-a-man

[farrellgirl99]

This explains things in a better way then I can so I'm going to be lazy. I encourage people who still think "compliments" aren't street harassment to read this please.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/46527-6- ... we-need-to

And if you're going to argue that saying "how are you" to a random woman is fine then I hope you say "how are you" to every single person on the street. It's one thing to say Hi to people you know, people in your neighborhood you see often, etc. This is not a small town/community dynamic I am talking about. This is someone you do not know, will not know, who is trying to walk down a street and simply exist.

Okay I'm done with this topic on here. Please read the article, it's written simply and it's quick.

[Hype]

The other day (in Madison, WI) a woman (probably an undergrad student... not sure) yelled out "Bless you!" when I sneezed while walking back to my house... It was an odd thing to do, mostly because it was from across the street (I didn't sneeze that loudly, I don't think), but I'm a guy, so it wasn't threatening, so I yelled back "THANKS!" I still would have preferred if I could sneeze in public without having to hear or say anything to anyone though...

But yeah, that article is pretty clear.

[Essence_Smith]

I take issue with number 3...everything else I have NO problem with, but there are aspects of # 3 that don't sit right...sometimes a compliment is just that and nothing more. It's not necessarily hitting on someone with intent to take it anywhere beyond sharing your opinion and moving on...me personally I have ALWAYS made it point to preface a compliment to a stranger with an apology because I get that maybe they don't want to hear it or may even be offended, and whether the compliment is well received or not, I wish them a good day. If the guy licking his lips has completely obscured the sincere elderly men of the world, we're truly fucked if you can't simply compliment a pretty girl and keep it moving without being lumped in with assholes who follow women down the street...

To add...for anyone following my remarks on this thread...I am a VERY friendly person. In the good way. A few have met and hung with me and know this...I am the type of person that says hello to the homeless guy that's always on the corner, the banker out front of the branch smoking a cigarette, the delivery guy at the messenger center and yes the pretty girl at the checkout counter...pretty much everywhere I go frequently I know someone. I'm the "mayor" at all the bars I go to...I mention all this to say I don't want anyone to think I think it's cool to harass women on the street and I get that some women just don't desire the attention on any level...I'm just the kinda guy that has no issue with talking to strangers and I hate to give off the impression I'm trying to defend rude behavior...

[Larry B.]

This explains things in a better way then I can so I'm going to be lazy. I encourage people who still think "compliments" aren't street harassment to read this please.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/46527-6- ... we-need-to

And if you're going to argue that saying "how are you" to a random woman is fine then I hope you say "how are you" to every single person on the street. It's one thing to say Hi to people you know, people in your neighborhood you see often, etc. This is not a small town/community dynamic I am talking about. This is someone you do not know, will not know, who is trying to walk down a street and simply exist.

Okay I'm done with this topic on here. Please read the article, it's written simply and it's quick.

I found most of that article to be nonsensical. It's basically saying "you don't have the right to talk to strangers", which is nothing short of stupid. It's a very lazy way to deal with what's wrong with a sexist society, by stripping it from some of its core principles.

Person A saying to Person B "I'd fuck you 'til your dead grandma ask us to stop" = harassment.

Person A saying to Person B "Can I get your phone number" = too forward. Might be a bit aggressive, but it's not harassment if Person A lets go after being told "no" one time.

Person A saying to Person B "bless you" or whatever they say in their country when some else sneezes = definitely not harassment! Person A is just trying to be polite. It might be unnecessary and awkward.

Person A saying trying to strike a normal conversation with Person B when they're waiting for the train/the doctor/whatever = not harassment. Awkward, maybe. If Person A can't take a hint and can't take a direct comment such as "you're making me uncomfortable", then it could be harassment if they don't leave you alone.

Other people doing stuff you don't like it's not harassment by default. If people look a bit lost in the subway, I approach them and offer my help, regardless of their gender or nationality or how poor/rich they look. It'd be absolutely stupid if they thought I was harassing them by saying "can I help?" If I approached them grabbing my crotch, that's a whole different matter. But otherwise, it's just people either trying to be helpful or polite or people trying to get into a conversation with someone they find interesting or attractive at first sight. You can ignore them or reject them, of course. You can pretend to be talking on the phone or whatever. But again, not everyone who approaches you is a threat. Obtaining the skills to identify who is a threat and who isn't might take time and be difficult, but that's just the way life is. Proclaiming that everything is harassment is lazy, simplistic and not even worthy of debate.

[Hype]

"you don't have the right to talk to strangers", which is nothing short of stupid.

No it isn't. The article's actually pretty clear about that -- a nod hello to a girl in your neighbourhood while out walking the dog isn't the phenomenon in question. And anyway, no one said there wasn't a right to do it. Of course there is, because talking to someone in public isn't illegal. But it *can* be creepy, or annoying, or bordering on harassment (which may or may not put it into questionable legality). It's hardly stupid to speak loudly about the fact that some men seem to think they can speak to women they don't know on the street in a way that is "overly familiar" to the point of causing fear and worry about potential danger (which does exist).

This is one of these things where people might actually think it's perfectly socially acceptable JUST BECAUSE women haven't been heard objecting to it (or haven't ever said it out loud repeatedly enough for people to care).

Plus, Larry, it's also the case that Latin America, like Southern Europe and some Arab countries (Egypt, in particular), has a very macho, very sexist dominant culture and a serious problem with women being objectified, touched, groped, etc., in public. You might think speaking to people you don't know is normal, but that's not the point. The point is that you don't get to dictate what people do and don't like. And if a significant portion of half of the population says they don't like something, it's reasonable to believe that it's probably at least rude, if nothing else, to keep doing it.

[Larry B.]

"you don't have the right to talk to strangers", which is nothing short of stupid.

No it isn't. The article's actually pretty clear about that -- a nod hello to a girl in your neighbourhood while out walking the dog isn't the phenomenon in question. And anyway, no one said there wasn't a right to do it. Of course there is, because talking to someone in public isn't illegal. But it *can* be creepy, or annoying, or bordering on harassment (which may or may not put it into questionable legality). It's hardly stupid to speak loudly about the fact that some men seem to think they can speak to women they don't know on the street in a way that is "overly familiar" to the point of causing fear and worry about potential danger (which does exist).

This is one of these things where people might actually think it's perfectly socially acceptable JUST BECAUSE women haven't been heard objecting to it (or haven't ever said it out loud repeatedly enough for people to care).

Plus, Larry, it's also the case that Latin America, like Southern Europe and some Arab countries (Egypt, in particular), has a very macho, very sexist dominant culture and a serious problem with women being objectified, touched, groped, etc., in public. You might think speaking to people you don't know is normal, but that's not the point. The point is that you don't get to dictate what people do and don't like. And if a significant portion of half of the population says they don't like something, it's reasonable to believe that it's probably at least rude, if nothing else, to keep doing it.

I think I agree with everything or most of what you said there.

I wanted to point out that there is a range of possibilities when someone you don't know talks to you. Not everything is harassment and not everything you don't like is harassment. If someone says "wow" at a woman and you call it harassment, you're taking away something from the meaning of that word, because you put it under the same umbrella of a guy pinching a girl's butt. It's not the same, it's not equally invasive, it's not as violent, etc. It doesn't matter if a particular person thinks "wow" is the worse thing you can say, it's not harassment.

Rape, generally speaking, is forceful, uninvited and non-consensual penetration.

Sexual abuse, generally speaking, can go from touching someone's crotch without consent to showing someone your penis and demanding them to suck it.

Sexual harassment, generally speaking, can go from telling someone what you'd do sexually to them (without them showing consent) to repeatedly 'joking' about what a good time you two would have in bed.

Harassment, generally speaking, can go from following some woman for 5 minutes asking for a date even though she doesn't show the slightest interest, to saying stuff like "great fucking rack, mamma".

A lot of stuff that happens in the streets, we don't like. It doesn't even have to be something sex-related: some fucking moron can start talking to me about Jesus or I can offer my help to someone who doesn't need it. That doesn't make it harassment, and surely someone who says "wow" to you, without any sign of aggressiveness, should be cataloged in the folder of "uncomfortable", not harassment. Someone saying "wow" is in no way equal to someone saying "wow, great rack, mamma, I wanna suck'em titties."

[Hype]

In Costa Rica, there was a covered alleyway from the hotel to the beach that locals were using to sell shitty souveniers... as far as I know, none of those locals actually raped or sexually harassed anyone, but they were extremely invasive and forceful both in presence and verbally, and they were ALWAYS there. If the way I felt (not to mention any women) there, standing a good head taller than most of them (Costa Ricans are poor, small people, as I imagine is similar in much of Chile), was anything like the way many women feel walking down the street in a big city, then I think it's absolutely reasonable to call it out and question why we don't consider it socially inappropriate, rude, etc. (Again, not a legal or even necessarily moral argument, though it is potentially moral, since we ought to care about how social structures affect the ability of everyone to operate in their daily lives without fear or invasion of privacy).

I think it was probably perfectly legal for those guys to line that alleyway and sell that shit. In fact, I think for a lot of them the alley was right along their backyard. But it was so beyond tolerable that I started walking the long way around down the main road to not have to deal with them (watch my wallet, ignore them and hope they don't threaten me for not responding to their questions, etc.) Trying to imagine every time I go outside like that makes me want to vomit.

[Larry B.]

extremely invasive and forceful both in presence and verbally

That's my distinction right there. I also hate those stupid jackoffs at markets who follow you so that you have lunch in their restaurant. People should be entitled to punch them in the face.