Now Watching...

off-topic conversation unrelated to Jane's Addiction
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Larry B.
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Re: Now Watching...

#81 Post by Larry B. » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:55 pm

creep wrote:
Larry B. wrote:
creep wrote: my favorite part of the doc was the female reporter.

Image
Name?
i don't know...

if you watch the rest of the doc she is all over it with scenes of the second trial.

edit..

after further research....

this is her plus 10+ years...

https://twitter.com/Angenette5
Wow, she is beautiful. I'm assuming you already added her on Facebook.

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farrellgirl99
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Re: Now Watching...

#82 Post by farrellgirl99 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:19 pm

Wow it's so weird they would leave out the bleach stains - that seems pretty relevant.

I binge watched it all today and just finished. I came away thinking both were innoncent - it just doesn't add up to me why Steven would kill her. The kid was intellectually challenged and I think it's horrifying he was convicted. I'm going to need to go and find everybody's theories about this now.

Hype and creep, why do you think he killed her? Or what makes you believe he did concretely, motive aside?

I thought Teresa's ex-boyfriend was creepy. And the fact her roommate never reported her missing is really weird. Why weren't those two investigated more? Why didn't the doc investigate those more? I think this doc was obviously very biased against the police and def pro-Steven so it definitely got filtered through those lens. But I guess it worked on me cause I can't figure out why either Steven or Brendan would be involved in the murder. I don't trust any of those cops or the justice system and it really just depressed the shit outta me.

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Re: Now Watching...

#83 Post by creep » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:33 pm

farrellgirl99 wrote:
Hype and creep, why do you think he killed her? Or what makes you believe he did concretely, motive aside?
pretty much because of the bonfire. she was burned in front of his house. it's hard to prove anything else.

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Re: Now Watching...

#84 Post by creep » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:36 pm

here is an article that i read that lists a few things not brought up in the doc.
— In the months leading up to Halbach’s disappearance, Avery had called Auto Trader several times and always specifically requested Halbach to come out and take the photos.

— Halbach had complained to her boss that she didn’t want to go out to Avery’s trailer anymore, because once when she came out, Avery was waiting for her wearing only a towel (this was excluded for being too inflammatory). Avery clearly had an obsession with Halbach.

— On the day that Halbach went missing, Avery had called her three times, twice from a *67 number to hide his identity.

— The bullet with Halbach’s DNA on it came from Avery’s gun, which always hung above his bed.

— Avery had purchased handcuffs and leg irons like the ones Dassey described holding Halbach only three weeks before (Avery said he’s purchased them for use with his girlfriend, Jodi, with whom he’d had a tumultuous relationship — at one point, he was ordered by police to stay away from her for three days).

— Here’s the piece of evidence that was presented at trial but not in the series that I find most convincing: In Dassey’s illegally obtained statement, Dassey stated that he helped Avery moved the RAV4 into the junkyard and that Avery had lifted the hood and removed the battery cable. Even if you believe that the blood in Halbach’s car was planted by the cops (as I do), there was also non-blood DNA evidence on the hood latch. I don’t believe the police would plant — or know to plant — that evidence.

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Re: Now Watching...

#85 Post by farrellgirl99 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:19 pm

Interesting! This is why I wish the doc had delved into Teresa a bit more...and Steve's relationship with her.

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Re: Now Watching...

#86 Post by Larry B. » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:46 am

creep wrote:here is an article that i read that lists a few things not brought up in the doc.
— In the months leading up to Halbach’s disappearance, Avery had called Auto Trader several times and always specifically requested Halbach to come out and take the photos.

— Halbach had complained to her boss that she didn’t want to go out to Avery’s trailer anymore, because once when she came out, Avery was waiting for her wearing only a towel (this was excluded for being too inflammatory). Avery clearly had an obsession with Halbach.

— On the day that Halbach went missing, Avery had called her three times, twice from a *67 number to hide his identity.

— The bullet with Halbach’s DNA on it came from Avery’s gun, which always hung above his bed.

— Avery had purchased handcuffs and leg irons like the ones Dassey described holding Halbach only three weeks before (Avery said he’s purchased them for use with his girlfriend, Jodi, with whom he’d had a tumultuous relationship — at one point, he was ordered by police to stay away from her for three days).

— Here’s the piece of evidence that was presented at trial but not in the series that I find most convincing: In Dassey’s illegally obtained statement, Dassey stated that he helped Avery moved the RAV4 into the junkyard and that Avery had lifted the hood and removed the battery cable. Even if you believe that the blood in Halbach’s car was planted by the cops (as I do), there was also non-blood DNA evidence on the hood latch. I don’t believe the police would plant — or know to plant — that evidence.
You see, these are the sort of things that I have a hard time believing. Are these facts actually scientifically confirmed or are they as true as the evidence the county used to put Steven behind bars in the first trial?

Also, let's remember how 'mentally challenged' Steven is and then picture him "calling from a *67 number to hide his identity". Also, have you guys forgotten the video recording of the two "investigators" questioning Steve in episode two? That's a fucking textbook questioning to make someone confess a crime they didn't commit. Next to torture, this is the most used technique to put words in someone else's mouth.

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Re: Now Watching...

#87 Post by Hype » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:33 am

While the low-IQ stuff did bother me throughout the series, Avery's IQ was borderline, and I've known so many people like that that it's not hard to believe he could press three extra buttons before dialing a phone number... Even Dassey could probably figure that out if someone showed it to him. These weren't people with severe Down's... they're probably both suffering from fetal alcohol syndrome and poor education.

Creep's article is great. I don't think I'm 100% sure Avery (and/or Dassey) really did do it, but I do think that the compelling narrative the documentary presented is pretty easy to weaken, even without the article listing extra evidence. What we saw were a number of questionable things. But in most cases, there just wasn't a clear resolution to them. It's not as if the documentary exposes proof that any particular piece of evidence couldn't tie Avery to the murder. It is, however, pretty hard to imagine a conspiracy executed so perfectly, and with so many of the pieces in place, and I don't think there was enough evidence to suggest anything other than that the prosecution made some mistakes (esp. the interrogation of Dassey, which is irrelevant to Avery's trial).

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Re: Now Watching...

#88 Post by Larry B. » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:46 am

I've just seen episode 3 of Making a Murderer... have you guys forgotten the video of the interrogation of Dassey? I cannot believe that there being video evidence of that interrogation and his testimonty it can still be considered valid in any court in this world.

This is the same type of injustice that countries under dictatorship have to endure. Regardless of evidence, common sense, ethic and morality, what authorities say it's true and if you don't believe it either you die (in the most extreme cases) or are cast out as a mental case or "conspiracy theorist". It's so sad.

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Re: Now Watching...

#89 Post by Hype » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:28 am

Keep watching, Larry. And keep track of what Dassey says to his mom vs. what he says in court, etc.

I think it's important to keep each issue separate. There was a murdered woman, so there's the murder-mystery question: whodunnit? The documentary doesn't just focus on this question (and justice for the victim and her family), but rather raising questions about the investigation(s). There's the main investigation into Avery, complicated by his status as previously wrongfully convicted (and also rightfully convicted, before that), and there's the secondary investigation into the role that Dassey did or didn't play in the murder. In both of these cases, you can consider the investigations separately from whether Avery and/or Dassey really did murder Halbach. The concerns about Avery are conspiratorial, and were caused in part by the lawyers pursuing a pretty crazy defense. The concerns about Dassey are procedural/moral -- there's no attempt to hide anything with him, it's just a matter of whether they were dealing with a 16 year old learning disabled child in an appropriate manner for a murder investigation they suspected him (obviously based on some evidence) of playing a (particularly gruesome) role in.

The phone calls are weird. The bonfire is weird. The blood is weird. The car being on Avery property, hidden, but not crushed, is weird. But I think if you consider everything carefully, you can think, e.g., that the interrogation of Dassey wasn't right, and even, as Creep says, that the Manitowoc county investigators planted the keys, and *maybe* the blood, and the car, in the precise way they were "found", but it doesn't necessarily follow from that that Avery didn't commit the murder, nor that Dassey wasn't involved, nor even that the prosecution's narrative was fabricated.

The problem isn't scepticism. It isn't about "not believing". The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they don't merely suspend judgment. They actively jump to another, often even more fantastical, explanation. This is worse than making a mistake about how to interpret some evidence.

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Re: Now Watching...

#90 Post by nausearockpig » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:01 pm

UK comedy "Trollied". Excellent, funny stuff.

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Re: Now Watching...

#91 Post by creep » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:06 pm

Hype wrote:
The problem isn't scepticism. It isn't about "not believing". The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they don't merely suspend judgment. They actively jump to another, often even more fantastical, explanation. This is worse than making a mistake about how to interpret some evidence.
this is so true. everyone is talking about this case and i was listening to a couple radios shows talking about it and it was crazy some of the stuff that was being said.

if i was a juror i do think there is enough "reasonable doubt" but i would hate to be on that jury and have to make that decision. i wonder if the fbi took a blood sample from the vial and tested it for that chemical. was that ever brought up?

our resident conspiracy theorist is only on episode 3. hang on everybody.....

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Re: Now Watching...

#92 Post by Larry B. » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:01 pm

creep wrote:
Hype wrote:
The problem isn't scepticism. It isn't about "not believing". The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they don't merely suspend judgment. They actively jump to another, often even more fantastical, explanation. This is worse than making a mistake about how to interpret some evidence.
this is so true. everyone is talking about this case and i was listening to a couple radios shows talking about it and it was crazy some of the stuff that was being said.

if i was a juror i do think there is enough "reasonable doubt" but i would hate to be on that jury and have to make that decision. i wonder if the fbi took a blood sample from the vial and tested it for that chemical. was that ever brought up?

our resident conspiracy theorist is only on episode 3. hang on everybody.....
:lol: You say that like it's a bad thing. There was a conspiracy to put Avery in prison in the first place, and that lasted for 18 years. Many people knew, yet the guy still remained in prison. It's not as if conspiracies don't exist :noclue:

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Re: Now Watching...

#93 Post by Hype » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:07 pm

Right, but it wouldn't have made sense to just believe his mom because she says she believes he was innocent. She had to prove it. And it sucks that the system made that exceedingly difficult, but it's only reasonable to believe the specific details of his wrongful conviction now that the evidence is out in the open. The fact that something is true (i.e., we find out later that it turned out to be true) doesn't make it reasonable to believe it (now, without evidence). Knowledge requires the right sort of connection to evidence, not just "I don't believe that, therefore this." (there are whole courses taught on this subject in university philosophy classes...)

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Re: Now Watching...

#94 Post by farrellgirl99 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:54 pm

I just went down the reddit rabbithole on theories for who killed halbach. interesting stuff about scott and bobby:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurdere ... ier_about/

also interesting idea about the car being discovered and why the roommate and brother come off weird. i think this is probably accurate:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurdere ... hy_due_to/

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Re: Now Watching...

#95 Post by Larry B. » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:24 am

Hype wrote:Right, but it wouldn't have made sense to just believe his mom because she says she believes he was innocent. She had to prove it. And it sucks that the system made that exceedingly difficult, but it's only reasonable to believe the specific details of his wrongful conviction now that the evidence is out in the open. The fact that something is true (i.e., we find out later that it turned out to be true) doesn't make it reasonable to believe it (now, without evidence). Knowledge requires the right sort of connection to evidence, not just "I don't believe that, therefore this." (there are whole courses taught on this subject in university philosophy classes...)
Of course, but those who were being "conspiracy theorists" back then weren't just basing their whacky ideas on the testimony of Avery's mother; they took into account his personality ("he wouldn't do that"), and the fact that the sheriff was angry with him (for driving his partner off the road), and the fact that Steven was in some other place when the attack happened, and that there was a rapist on the loose, and the fact that the victim's description didn't fit Avery's, etc. There are too many pieces of evidence that make the official story sound like bullshit, and yet the people in charge are sticking to it, which could mean there was a conspiracy against Avery... and it turns out, there was a conspiracy against him.

Now, in the murder case (and from what I've seen so far), there are things that are too convenient for the police: Avery murders a woman as he is suing them for 36 million; the car is found in their lot, when he could've fucking destroyed it beyond any recognition; the kid was coerced into a bullshit confession that implies Avery; and all the other things that you already know, like the bullshit key finding and the bullshit blood spots in the car, which are SO OBVIOUSLY planted there with a cotton swab. (Looking for a picture of the blood stains on the dashboard I came across this image that explains exactly what I saw: https://i.imgur.com/5esQOz5.jpg) Steve doesn't slip up and tells somebody about his culpability, doesn't even insinuate it.

So far, I haven't seen ONE piece of incriminating evidence. We'll see.

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Re: Now Watching...

#96 Post by Artemis » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:00 pm

Looking forward to the new season of American Crime on Wednesday.
ABC’s anthology series returns for a second season with many of the same actors (Felicity Huffman, Timothy Hutton, Regina King and Richard Cabral) taking on completely new roles. This season the show tackles the extraordinarily timely topic of teens, social media and the idea that wealth and privilege absolve you from any wrong doing. The settin is a private school and the case involves the rape of student at a party for the basketball team. Lili Taylor joins the cast as a mother trying to do the right thing by her son (Connor Jessup), but lacking the resources necessary to fight the hierarchy of the elite. If this show were on cable, it would probably be receiving a lot more buzz.

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Re: Now Watching...

#97 Post by creep » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:58 pm

an email from the prosecutor.
Examples for you to consider:

1. Avery’s past incident with a cat was not “goofing around”. He soaked his cat in gasoline or oil, and put it on a fire to watch it suffer.

2. Avery targeted Teresa. On Oct 31 (8:12 am) he called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send “that same girl who was here last time.” On Oct 10, Teresa had been to the Avery property when Steve answered the door just wearing a towel. She said she would not go back because she was scared of him (obviously). Avery used a fake name and fake # (his sister’s) giving those to the AutoTrader receptionist, to trick Teresa into coming.

3. Teresa’s phone, camera and PDA were found 20 ft from Avery’s door, burned in his barrel. Why did the documentary not tell the viewers the contents of her purse were in his burn barrel, just north of the front door of his trailer?

4. While in prison, Avery told another inmate of his intent to build a “torture chamber” so he could rape, torture and kill young women when he was released. He even drew a diagram. Another inmate was told by Avery that the way to get rid of a body is to “burn it”…heat destroys DNA.

5. The victim’s bones in the firepit were “intertwined” with the steel belts, left over from the car tires Avery threw on the fire to burn, as described by Dassey. That WAS where her bones were burned! Suggesting that some human bones found elsewhere (never identified as Teresa’s) were from this murder was NEVER established.

6. Also found in the fire pit was Teresa’s tooth (ID’d through dental records), a rivet from the “Daisy Fuentes” jeans she was wearing that day, and the tools used by Avery to chop up her bones during the fire.

7. Phone records show 3 calls from Avery to Teresa’s cell phone on Oct 31. One at 2:24, and one at 2:35–both calls Avery uses the *67 feature so Teresa doesn’t know it him…both placed before she arrives. Then one last call at 4:35 pm, without the *67 feature. Avery first believes he can simply say she never showed up (his original defense), so tries to establish the alibi call after she’s already been there, hence the 4:35 call. She will never answer of course, so he doesn’t need the *67 feature for that last call.

8. Avery’s DNA (not blood) was on the victim’s hood latch (under her hood in her hidden SUV). The SUV was at the crime lab since 11/5…how did his DNA get under the hood if Avery never touched her car? Do the cops have a vial of Avery’s sweat to “plant” under the hood?

9. Ballistics said the bullet found in the garage was fired by Avery’s rifle, which was in a police evidence locker since 11/6…if the cops planted the bullet, how did they get one fired from HIS gun? This rifle, hanging over Aver’s bed, is the source of the bullet found in the garage, with Teresa’s DNA on it. The bullet had to be fired BEFORE 11/5—did the cops borrow his gun, fire a bullet, recover the bullet before planting the SUV, then hang on to the bullet for 4 months in case they need to plant it 4 months later???

There is more of course. But I’m not a DA anymore. I have no duty to show what nonsense the “planting” defense is, or why the documentary makers didn’t provide these uncontested facts to the audience. You see, these facts are inconsistent with the claim that these men were framed—you don’t want to muddy up a perfectly good conspiracy movie with what actually happened, and certainly not provide the audience with the EVIDENCE the jury considered to reject that claim.

Finally, I engaged in deplorable behavior, sending suggestive text messages to a crime victim in Oct 2009. I reported myself to the OLR. My law license was thereafter suspended for 4 months. I have withstood a boat-load of other consequences as a result of that behavior, including loss of my prosecution career. However, I’ve enjoyed sobriety from prescription drug use for over 5 years now, and refuse to be defined by that dark time of my life. All of this occurred years after the Avery case was concluded…I’m unclear why the defense-created documentary chose to include this unpleasantness in this movie, especially if the filmmakers had no agenda to cast me as a villain. I am not a victim in that whole texting scandal—then again, it’s exceedingly unfair to use that to characterize me as morally unfit.

To identify Lt. Lenk, Sgt. Colburn and myself as being “responsible” for the framing and knowing false murder conviction of Steven Avery is irresponsible, and inconsistent with a consideration of all the evidence presented. Netflix should either provide an opportunity for rebuttal, or alert the viewers that this series was produced by and FOR the defense of Steven Avery, and contains only the opinion and theory of the defense team.

Thanks for your consideration.

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Re: Now Watching...

#98 Post by Hype » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:53 am

That seems pretty clear to me.

The series is still excellent for many reasons, and it does a good job of raising important questions about the justice system. I don't think Avery has to be innocent for that to still be the case.

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Re: Now Watching...

#99 Post by Bandit72 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:12 am

I watched this earler. Nostalgia!


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Re: Now Watching...

#100 Post by Artemis » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:42 pm

Caught the first episode of American Crime Story: The People v. O.J. Simpson - :thumb:

It's on Tuesdays on FX at 10(ET).

Pretty good cast for a tv show..

Cuba Gooding Jr, John Travolta,Sarah Paulson,Daid Schwimmer,Connie Britton,Nathan Lane



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Re: Now Watching...

#101 Post by creep » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:03 pm

Artemis wrote:Caught the first episode of American Crime Story: The People v. O.J. Simpson - :thumb:

It's on Tuesdays on FX at 10(ET).

Pretty good cast for a tv show..

Cuba Gooding Jr, John Travolta,Sarah Paulson,Daid Schwimmer,Connie Britton,Nathan Lane


i've been actually hearing really good things about this. i have the first episode on my dvr i need to watch tonight.

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Re: Now Watching...

#102 Post by dannyboy » Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:37 pm

Bandit72 wrote:Apparently The Wire is most excellent. I've never seen it.

I'm currently watching Scandavia's finest 'The Bridge'. Series 3 concludes this Saturday. Simply brilliant. I never thought they would improve on Series 1 and 2 but they have. It's also really weird,as since it is in Danish and Swedish, I still have to have the volume up whilst I read the subtitles.
The Bridge is great! I was worried about the third season not being any good without Martin but I soon forgot all about him!
I'm halfway through "making a murderer". Stevens lawyer seems like a a genuinely good guy while those cops and his nephews lawyer appear pretty untrustworthy!

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Re: Now Watching...

#103 Post by perkana » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:22 pm

Vinyl premieres tonight on HBO. Here at 11, hope I don't fall asleep...

Also, I think Girls new season starts next week. I'm going to watch.
I didn't watch Mozart in the Jungle first season, but I've been watching season 2 and I really like it. What else, oh yeah, this is pretty embarrassing. Who is excited about The Gilmore Girls new episodes? I think I'm going to finally give Netflix a chance just to watch this.

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Re: Now Watching...

#104 Post by creep » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:20 pm

perkana wrote:Vinyl premieres tonight on HBO. Here at 11, hope I don't fall asleep...
i hope this gets better. first episode was boring.

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Re: Now Watching...

#105 Post by Bandit72 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:17 am

I watched episode 1 of The People v O.J Simpson last night.

Hmmmmm....I hope it gets better. Cuba's acting is half decent. David Schwimmer and John Travolta are awful in it. Travolta looks plastic too. How did he get so famous?

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