Free will is an illusion....?

[Hype]

My problem with no free will is it would mean then you never are responsible for good or bad. I know you say that there is more to it then that, but really there isn't. You either control your life or you don't there is no in-between. If you have any sort of control then there is free will. This is something that there can't be different levels.

You can't keep saying "My problem with X is that it would mean Y, and Y is bad."

That's a bad reason not to believe something. Just because you don't like the implications you think it has doesn't mean it isn't true.

And no, in fact, 'control' has a very specific meaning in neurological and psychological literature, and there's a very clear sense in which self-control is a species of determination (specifically: the kind that involves frontal-lobe processing and long-term goals).

No I don't believe it because we have control of what we do and don't do. Life is real, to me if there was no free will why have life. This is a bit far but then we are just robots that have a chip that programed us and then we go.

The first thing you say is circular... you're effectively saying "I don't believe it because it's not true." But that's the thing we're supposed to be arguing about... And I've already shown why self-control and 'free will' aren't the same thing.

Your second point is something else I also already criticized. You equate determinism (the view that everything that happens is determined by what comes before it) with fatalism (the view that if everything is determined, there's no point in doing anything)... but I've already shown why those aren't the same thing. You can't just assert these things... maybe go back and re-read some of what I've said, because I swear I went over this already.

We aren't *just* robots... we're very cool, very complicated robots (actually, with Dennett, I would say "lots of tiny robots")... and it's not true that this implies "there's no point at all". There are lots of points. Living things, unlike rocks, are able to move around on their planet(s) in response to stimuli... some more than others, and some with greater degrees of complexity and forethought than others... but this is what's so great about the universe... it has developed to the point where it has become self-aware (in us). This doesn't require some crazy supernatural "free will" that separates us from the rest of the natural world... And to be quite frank, I think that view denigrates the very thing that makes humans so great (our capacity to seek natural explanations and understand the world).

[Artemis]

I take it to be much clearer than this: A free will would be one which is radically unfettered by anything except itself. That is, my will is free if *nothing* outside of it determines it to move/act.

That's how I would say it is too. I see it as someone who acts impulsively with no conscience or memory or thought to repercussions or past experience. I think someone with Alzheimers or some other mental illness might be close to free will.

That's interesting... like... frontal lobe atrophy in old people that causes them to just blurt out obscenities and racial slurs about their caregivers... they actually have suffered damage to the part of the brain that governs 'self control'... so in fact they're just saying *whatever* comes to mind. It would be worse if they just *did* whatever came to mind too...

But you can see that's kind of ironic... we want to think of the opposite type of person as the one with the most 'free will'... the person who exhibits the most 'self-control'... and yet they seem in many ways the least random, the least free.

Yes, exactly.
As has been shown in this thread, most people think of free will as actively making a choice or decision and pursuing it. I think that's partially true but I do think as you pointed out those choices are influenced by things such as past experiences, or anticipating an outcome, like doing specific things in a particular order to achieve a goal or whatever. I see free will as living in the moment with no thought to past or future just the present.

[Hype]

That's a will so free that the person fell out...

[Artemis]

free- wheeling!

[Hype]

free- wheeling!

[Artemis]

free- wheeling!

[mockbee]

If you've got a few minutes, read this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/maga ... nough.html

I'm not much for believing that someone like this guy can be fixed. Don't waste the tax payers money by putting him on trial to have some lawyer say he is insane so he can't be held responsible. Save the time and money, just kill him now end of story.

LJF, are you referring to the guy in this NY Times article that Adurentibus posted? To kill him? Or are you referring to the Colorado murderer?

You are very confident about that statement.


Either way, I have a question for you. Would you personally carry out that death sentence? Would you throw the switch, or would you shoot the gun, or would you inject the poison into this young man personally? Are you, using your *free will*, fully willing to do that?

If not, I wouldn't be making such definitive statements. And if so...... I am seriously more frightened of you than I am of both the guy in the NY Times article and the guy sitting in a Colorado jail cell right now........

[Hype]

The idea that what's best is to kill killers strikes me as a very "amygdala-based" response... based not on careful consideration of the "ceteris paribus" (all-things-considered) facts about what we actually want, but on a primitive notion of vengeance and retributive justice... Not to undercut victims and their suffering at all, since that, of course, is paramount, but we are all humans.

[mockbee]

i'm lost. where is the thread for the dumb people? i need out of here.

creep,

Let me try and help. Where did you get lost at? Was is at the beginning?

Or when Jasper started chiming in? He's taking it to a new and kind of interesting level.

Hype, of course, is very semantic, using a lot of words I don't even understand, [I was going to say semitic, but I think, that is correct as well.... ] but that is good because then I can look those words up.

I will start at the beginning.

Let's talk about Taco Time.

Shall we?

This is how I personally understand free will, or the lack there of. I will try and keep this short as well, for both of our sakes. So you said you decided to go to Taco Time in Roseburg and order a crisp chicken burrito, a soft bean burrito and a chicken and black bean burrito. There is a reason you did that creep, no? If you said there is no reason at all, you did that and you did that based on no other reason than..... *poof* it came to your head, you will consciously decide to go to Taco Time and, based on no other stimuli or circumstances, decide to order those items, because you are free to do that. Do you, creep, believe that is the case....? If so, you believe in free will...................

Most of us think there is a reason, that there was a force unknowable to us, something we are trying to figure out, that made you go to that Taco Time in Roseburg and order those items. Of course, that same force or drive or whatever we want to call it, is the same one that made you get your job that makes you travel all the time and the same one that made you grow up in California and feel very comfortable with Mexican fast food, and it is the same one that made you want to try different items at different fast food mexican restaurants...... AND it is the same force that made you NOT like the food you got at that Taco Time in Roseburg!!!!!! That force, or maybe Hype has a better word for it, is in everything. It is what makes up the universe and everything that has happened up to this second and all the time after that. That same force that made you stop at the Taco Time is the same one that created the earth. And that ain't religious mumbo jumbo, it's rather the opposite......

YOU HAD NO CONTROL OVER WHETHER YOU WERE GOING TO STOP AT THAT TACO TIME IN ROSEBURG AND ORDER THOSE ITEMS AND NOT LIKE THEM!

If that makes sense to you, you don't have to agree with it, then you understand what everyone is talking about. If something in there doesn't make sense let me know and maybe we can make it more clear. If you have read this far.......CONGRATULATIONS!

[Hype]

Hype, of course, is very semantic, using a lot of words I don't even understand, [I was going to say semitic, but I think, that is correct as well.... ] but that is good because then I can look those words up.

That is the funniest thing I've read anywhere in a while.

[Juana]

If you've got a few minutes, read this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/maga ... nough.html

I'm not much for believing that someone like this guy can be fixed. Don't waste the tax payers money by putting him on trial to have some lawyer say he is insane so he can't be held responsible. Save the time and money, just kill him now end of story.

LJF, are you referring to the guy in this NY Times article that Adurentibus posted? To kill him? Or are you referring to the Colorado murderer?

You are very confident about that statement.


Either way, I have a question for you. Would you personally carry out that death sentence? Would you throw the switch, or would you shoot the gun, or would you inject the poison into this young man personally? Are you, using your *free will*, fully willing to do that?

If not, I wouldn't be making such definitive statements. And if so...... I am seriously more frightened of you than I am of both the guy in the NY Times article and the guy sitting in a Colorado jail cell right now........

I do not believe that he is going to get the needle. They're probably going to find that he devolved to that point over the last few months while suffering from some type or delusion, especially given his age and that around that age schizophrenia sets in as well. Colorado only has a couple people on death row and has not executed anyone in a while.

I would have no issue, IF I was employed in that role, but most states with the death penalty have a panel of people that inject the poison so no one has to live with the guilt.

[mockbee]

Hype, of course, is very semantic, using a lot of words I don't even understand, [I was going to say semitic, but I think, that is correct as well.... ] but that is good because then I can look those words up.

That is the funniest thing I've read anywhere in a while.

Are you drunk....?

It has been a long, long day for sure..... jeeeez. I had fun....

One of those days that made me really think in my head and will stick with me for some time...........

I love those days.

It's time for bed, though. Sleep is sooooooooo important.

To our health and well being I raise a cup of............. water.

[mockbee]

............................. but most states with the death penalty have a panel of people that inject the poison so no one has to live with the guilt.

Yeaaaahhhhhhhhh....................

Only humanity has to live with the guilt, not just some guy.

I think that is where the problem lies..............

[Juana]

I doubt it will get changed anytime soon. http://www.people-press.org/2012/01/06/ ... h-penalty/

[Hype]

Hype, of course, is very semantic, using a lot of words I don't even understand, [I was going to say semitic, but I think, that is correct as well.... ] but that is good because then I can look those words up.

That is the funniest thing I've read anywhere in a while.

Are you drunk....?

It has been a long, long day for sure..... jeeeez. I had fun....

One of those days that made me really think in my head and will stick with me for some time...........

I love those days.

It's time for bed, though. Sleep is sooooooooo important.

To our health and well being I raise a cup of............. water.

Huh... I don't remember typing that... I guess I was drunk.

[LJF]

I take it to be much clearer than this: A free will would be one which is radically unfettered by anything except itself. That is, my will is free if *nothing* outside of it determines it to move/act.

That's how I would say it is too. I see it as someone who acts impulsively with no conscience or memory or thought to repercussions or past experience. I think someone with Alzheimers or some other mental illness might be close to free will.

That's interesting... like... frontal lobe atrophy in old people that causes them to just blurt out obscenities and racial slurs about their caregivers... they actually have suffered damage to the part of the brain that governs 'self control'... so in fact they're just saying *whatever* comes to mind. It would be worse if they just *did* whatever came to mind too...

But you can see that's kind of ironic... we want to think of the opposite type of person as the one with the most 'free will'... the person who exhibits the most 'self-control'... and yet they seem in many ways the least random, the least free.

Yes, exactly.
As has been shown in this thread, most people think of free will as actively making a choice or decision and pursuing it. I think that's partially true but I do think as you pointed out those choices are influenced by things such as past experiences, or anticipating an outcome, like doing specific things in a particular order to achieve a goal or whatever. I see free will as living in the moment with no thought to past or future just the present.

To me free will is choosing between a & b and being responsible for what you choose. Yes we are influenced by our past experiences, but if they were done with our free will then so are all of our future decisions. You can't have one without the other. If you say there was any free will at any point then there is free will. There is no way to totally act in the moment, we are a some of all our parts, so the past will influence what we decide, but that is still exercising free will.

[LJF]

If you've got a few minutes, read this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/maga ... nough.html

I'm not much for believing that someone like this guy can be fixed. Don't waste the tax payers money by putting him on trial to have some lawyer say he is insane so he can't be held responsible. Save the time and money, just kill him now end of story.

LJF, are you referring to the guy in this NY Times article that Adurentibus posted? To kill him? Or are you referring to the Colorado murderer?

You are very confident about that statement.


Either way, I have a question for you. Would you personally carry out that death sentence? Would you throw the switch, or would you shoot the gun, or would you inject the poison into this young man personally? Are you, using your *free will*, fully willing to do that?

If not, I wouldn't be making such definitive statements. And if so...... I am seriously more frightened of you than I am of both the guy in the NY Times article and the guy sitting in a Colorado jail cell right now........

I was referring to the colorado guy and yes I'm 100% confident in my statement. Why waste money and time on someone like that. There is no doubt he did it, so kill the fucking guy no trial. WHy waste time and money on someone like that. All that is going to happen is some lawyer will get him declared insane and they will say they will try to fix him. No one that is that fucked up is getting fixed sorry it's not happening. Once you go down that path there's no turng back. This guy planned this for a long time he know what he was doing, make him deal with the consequence.

I'm not trained to execute people, but if I was I'd have no problem doing it. There is no doubt he did it, so what does a long trial do? It will achieve nothing, but wasting time, money and clogging the justice system. If these thoughts frighten you sorry, but when there is no doubt who did something as horrible as this they don't deserve to exist.

[Hype]

[LJF]

If this is towards me, which of my last two posts is confusing?

[Hype]

I like that you're trying to come to the defense of 'free will', but your views come across as somewhat shallow and unreflective, which is fine, but a bit frustrating, since the idea in this thread should be to try to work through your thoughts by bouncing them off others, and getting clearer as you go... you seem to be just repeating the same thing over and over, without actually justifying your view, nor mounting any serious objection to the alternative.

I don't mean that in a "fuck you!" way, I mean it in more like the "university tutorial" way, in that this is the sort of thing I have said to students many times to try to get them to see that they can totally hold any view they like, so long as they understand what is required to actually justify it. I'm not expecting you to have a perfect argument or anything like that, but you *must* say more than things like: "No one that is that fucked up is getting fixed sorry it's not happening. Once you go down that path there's no turng back." or "There is no way to totally act in the moment, we are a some of all our parts, so the past will influence what we decide, but that is still exercising free will."

Those are conclusions of arguments, not starting points, and you haven't given anything like an argument for why anyone else should accept those views (nor actually explained why you accept them).

I think you're wrong on both counts, and I've given my reasons. In order to have a discussion about it, you can try to find holes in what I said in favour of my own view, and/or you can try to come up with a stronger defense of your own view. But the way you've been saying what you say in this thread makes it almost impossible to actually have a discussion, because you're not really responding to what's being said.

Again, I realize this is asking a lot... it's a Jane's Addiction message board, and this is a fucking crazy thread... and I'm probably saying things in a way that's too academic... If that's the case, and you'd prefer not to go that way, then never mind. But this is how I see what you've said so far, and I think it would be interesting for you, as seemingly the lone defender of "free will", to try a bit harder.

[mockbee]

@I'd-rent-a-bus.(hype)..........


Edit: How about I just call you Spinny....... Cause you got Spinoza there right?

[Hype]

@I'd-rent-a-bus.(hype)..........


Edit: How about I just call you Spinny....... Cause you got Spinoza there right?

I think my new handle is actually ungrammatical, too... I'm not all that good at Latin (yet)... no matter... "Hype" is fine... it doesn't connote that stupid song.

[LJF]

only have afew minutes now, so more later.

I'm repeating here a bit then an example to maybe help explain better. To me free will is choosing between a & b and being responsible for what you choose. Yes we are influenced by our past experiences, but if they were done with our free will then so are all of our future decisions. You can't have one without the other. If you say there was any free will at any point then there is free will.

So after reading the first few posts in this thread I decided to post my view on free will. I did this knowing that it would probably result in a round and round discuss with you. This was based on past experience from some of our prior discussions. I am making this post to further the discussion.

During this whole process I'm choosing to either get involved in the discussion or not, then once I'm in the discussion I choose each time to either respond to posts or to not respond. When I'm making those decisions I'm using my free will to choose if I want to continue or not. Each decision is a seperate event, but I'm making each seperate decision based on past experience. All along using my free will to either continue or not continue the discussion.

[Hype]

only have afew minutes now, so more later.

I'm repeating here a bit then an example to maybe help explain better. To me free will is choosing between a & b and being responsible for what you choose. Yes we are influenced by our past experiences, but if they were done with our free will then so are all of our future decisions. You can't have one without the other. If you say there was any free will at any point then there is free will.

So after reading the first few posts in this thread I decided to post my view on free will. I did this knowing that it would probably result in a round and round discuss with you. This was based on past experience from some of our prior discussions. I am making this post to further the discussion.

During this whole process I'm choosing to either get involved in the discussion or not, then once I'm in the discussion I choose each time to either respond to posts or to not respond. When I'm making those decisions I'm using my free will to choose if I want to continue or not. Each decision is a seperate event, but I'm making each seperate decision based on past experience. All along using my free will to either continue or not continue the discussion.

Is your decision to continue or not continue done for any reason?

[Juana]

I like twizzlers that is why I continue to post.