Navarro: What makes him great?

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autumnan
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Navarro: What makes him great?

#1 Post by autumnan » Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:50 am

Dave Navarro, he's a fucking great guitar player. Over his run with JA you can say that:

1. He knows when to lock in as a rhythm player and when to take off as a lead player.
2. He knows when a song will benefit from NOT soloing (e.g. Then She Did - I clearly remember him saying in an interview how he felt that a solo would have contributed nothing to that song, which I totally respect)
3. When he does solo, he has the ability to find something otherworldly that makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck. For me, the solo in Mountain Song and that fucking high note he bends up to at the height of Obvious - makes me wanna cum.
4. He does cool little weird ideas that weave around the bass line and make the music all sinewy. Like the intro to Pigs on the XXX record or the first section of Three Days. It's like something George Harrison would do - it's so effortlessly musical and selfless in its conception.
5. He can shred, but he does his own version and doesn't sound like an 80s GIT player. I can't shred. There are moments where, in my mind it's going to go OFF, but I just haven't trained my fingers to do that. I wish I'd put in that effort when I was younger. Respect to the guy for putting in the hours.
6. He's an intuitive and creative guitar arranger - the LAYERS he brings to JA studio cuts are so well thought out, he's like the Johnny Marr of art/alt rock. Acoustic; unplugged electric; clean electric; gritty electric; facemelt-astronaut-licking-a-live-cable electric. Power chords; poly-chords; partial chords and double-stops; single note runs; chordy-solos; strummin'; harmonics; vibrator noise; delay-soaked-in-phaser; wah-soaked-in-delay; sample-like-shit etc. etc. He got some fresh ideas on TGEA that were the best things on that record. I hope he is having a meeting with Troy to get some new options for his pedal board. (Not too much though, I always liked that he didn't overdo his setup)

If JA recorded as the orig 4, with Troy, Daniel Ash and Dave having a little guitar party that would be some major guitar erection. If they toured with Troy on second guitar and maybe the odd bits of synth / keys (which he does for QOTSA) it would be spectacular. Janes could become what it threatened to be in 1990 but couldn't fulfil. I don't think Josh Klinghoffer is in the same league, he's good, he just doesn't have the artistry. Sorry.

Okay, I set that up and then went overboard before giving anyone else a shot. Come on though, what are your favourite DN moments? Let's give the dude some love :heart:

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#2 Post by Hokahey » Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:15 am

Your mistake here is speaking in the present tense. When is the last time Dave did anything you’re describing?

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#3 Post by Tyler Durden » Sat Jan 07, 2023 8:16 am

Dave’s guitar solo on “Underground” is better than Josh Kringehoffer’s entire musical output…and that’s from crappy Chaney’s Addiction era.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#4 Post by someguy » Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:00 am

This post really wants me having him all in again and I hope he changes his mind with whatever is happening and comes back around

Weave is the key word here. I really think if he got in a studio with these new songs he would react to what’s in place perfectly. He just needs to be in the right situation.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#5 Post by clickie » Sat Jan 07, 2023 10:16 am

One of my favorite Dave moments him and Val Kilmer together in the 3 Days movie.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#6 Post by Hokahey » Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:00 am

Tyler Durden wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 8:16 am
Dave’s guitar solo on “Underground” is better than Josh Kringehoffer’s entire musical output…and that’s from crappy Chaney’s Addiction era.
It’s still very RAWK. I like it. I do. But it’s not the shredding style that gave those early Janes songs that part of their personality.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#7 Post by autumnan » Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:55 pm

Hokahey wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:15 am
Your mistake here is speaking in the present tense. When is the last time Dave did anything you’re describing?
That's a point worth digging into. See, I think it depends what he is working with. I know it doesn't necessarily have writing chronology, but the first three tracks on TGEA have some interesting guitar production ideas. What you quickly realise as a listener though, is that the majority of songs on this album are built around standard rock rhythms and tempos, something you just don't find in 1.0. Coming up with 'the groove' is not his where his real talent lies. The original JA rhythm section never used those 'boom, bat, a-boom boom bat' rhythms.

Another thing I noticed with TGEA (I'm picking on it because I sampled through it before making my opening post) is that most of those songs are in Verse-Chorus form. The majority of their original output was closer to AAA form with breaks, solos or outros (unless it was verging on something proggy / symphonic like Ted or Three Days). Think about how many songs have the title at the start or end of the first song section? That's not a 'chorus'.

Take 'The Regency' - the track on the Iggy record. Nice new-wave-y guitar things around a bass that mostly plays a root - 7 rock line (like Just Because or Superhero). The guitar is doing all the harmonic work, trying to suggest something more interesting but it doesn't have much to inspire it. And then you get a four-chord 'chorus' section.

It's no surprise he hasn't done much lately of what we first dug about him, he's been operating in a different context.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#8 Post by Hokahey » Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:41 am

autumnan wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:55 pm
Hokahey wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:15 am
Your mistake here is speaking in the present tense. When is the last time Dave did anything you’re describing?
That's a point worth digging into. See, I think it depends what he is working with. I know it doesn't necessarily have writing chronology, but the first three tracks on TGEA have some interesting guitar production ideas. What you quickly realise as a listener though, is that the majority of songs on this album are built around standard rock rhythms and tempos, something you just don't find in 1.0. Coming up with 'the groove' is not his where his real talent lies. The original JA rhythm section never used those 'boom, bat, a-boom boom bat' rhythms.

Another thing I noticed with TGEA (I'm picking on it because I sampled through it before making my opening post) is that most of those songs are in Verse-Chorus form. The majority of their original output was closer to AAA form with breaks, solos or outros (unless it was verging on something proggy / symphonic like Ted or Three Days). Think about how many songs have the title at the start or end of the first song section? That's not a 'chorus'.

Take 'The Regency' - the track on the Iggy record. Nice new-wave-y guitar things around a bass that mostly plays a root - 7 rock line (like Just Because or Superhero). The guitar is doing all the harmonic work, trying to suggest something more interesting but it doesn't have much to inspire it. And then you get a four-chord 'chorus' section.

It's no surprise he hasn't done much lately of what we first dug about him, he's been operating in a different context.

Ah, but go back to OHM. There were songs on that album with the same structures that still sounded very signature Navarro. So I’m not buying it. You’re also absolving him of being a creative influence in the song writing as if he’s a hired gun in Janes.

At some point Dave came to embrace being a traditional rock god guitar player, and that’s all he plays now. There’s not much that differentiates him anymore.

That said, I was HOPING that Eric would change everything for that band, including Dave. I don’t think Dave wants to change. I don’t think he wants to create interesting new music. I think he wants to put his foot on the amp and rock out like he’s in Alter Bridge or something.

I would be thrilled to be wrong.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#9 Post by CaseyContrarian » Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:19 am

Agree. It made me sad to hear those chordal colors and goth-psych arpeggios on the new Iggy track, especially sitting so close to the Eric track.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#10 Post by autumnan » Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:24 am

Hoka - reading your response it dawned on me that I had never really listened to One Hot Minute beyond the singles, so it's blasting out as I write.

I have to say, it is so much better than I expected! If anything this is a weirder, darker RHCP than I knew of. You're totally right that signature DN sound is in there, it's a joy to hear, even if he has to tolerate being a 'funk rocker' now and then. This has just catapulted OHM up in my estimation and I generally can't stomach RHCP much these days. The least interesting moments embody exactly the kind of 'dumb riff and poppy chorus' template that characterises both bands musical decline.

I find it strange that it is those ideas which gradually become the default. Like you say, it could just be a lack of investment.

And, like you, I also hoped the old mojo candle might spark with the return of EA. As commented elsewhere, it's hard to rule out whether that is in fact the stumbling block right now. Perhaps the connection between Dave, Chaney and their mutual loss of Taylor is a far stronger bond than the old glories. Yeah, maybe he really has got different musical values and the context is irrelevant now. Maybe it's just hard to entertain going back to that old place.

Loudwire OHM retrospective

All that said, the legacy of great material is what I intended to celebrate, whether he's interested in it himself or not. What, in your opinion, are his peak moments?

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#11 Post by elbuitre » Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:23 pm

Well-written posts, autumnan.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#12 Post by dannyboy » Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:39 pm

If Dave had never joined Jane’s I’m pretty sure none of us would be here now and my life would definitely have turned out very differently!

I think Dave is still in the band and wants to be in the band but he’s really struggled this year.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#13 Post by Stickyfingers » Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:21 am

dannyboy wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:39 pm
If Dave had never joined Jane’s I’m pretty sure none of us would be here now and my life would definitely have turned out very differently!

I think Dave is still in the band and wants to be in the band but he’s really struggled this year.
Overrated.
He gave his metal style solos for the JA 1.0, but those fantastic songs were ready before he joined the band.
As a composer he is mediocre, just listen to Trust No One or Panic Channel, average Alternative Rock Radio format...at the best.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#14 Post by dannyboy » Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:26 am

Then She Did was written with Dave, nuff said!

I liked a lot of Spread/Trust No one. I kinda like NHC. Admittedly not on same level as Jane’s.

Less said about the Panic Channel the better but Deconstruction and OHM both awesome

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#15 Post by elbuitre » Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:54 am

I've always liked how Dave can play a range of styles but still sound like himself.

Classic Girl, Mountain Song, Stop, Ted, Summertime Rolls... the style of guitar playing is very different on all of them but they all have a psychedelic, arty quality that Dave brought to the table in that era.

Personal favourite is No One's Leaving. It doesn't sound like any other guitarist (that I know of) and Dave doesn't simply play a version of the bassline with extra licks, as is the case with songs like Pig's In Zen or Had A Dad. I love Dave's playing on those songs too but I can see how someone could make the argument that many other guitar players would've come up with similar parts.

There are just as many songs that disprove the suggestion that Dave simply "played over the top of Eric's basslines" though, e.g. Then She Did, Been Caught Stealing, Obvious.

Also, his song-writing ability shouldn't be conflated with his guitar-playing. Totally different skills.

I wouldn't expect Dave in 2023 to come up with guitar parts that I like as much as the 1.0 stuff but I'd still much rather hear him play with the band than anyone else.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#16 Post by Stickyfingers » Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:46 am

Back in the days, around 1986 Eric and Perry audition Dave was like: "ok we know you play well, just forget pentatonic scales, solos and bullshits and try to think outside the box".

So it was the Janes who "opened" Dave metal kid to play psychedelia, summertime rolls, root dub (Ted), psychedelic funk, indian raga, spanish riff and all that wonderful mix styles in Janes.

With Deconstruction he did a great work but Eric was the main force behind those songs.

Again with the Peppers did good work, they are all great musicians.

Left on his own, Dave is quite depressive, he tends to ride on standard rock tracks, with mediocre results, IMO.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#17 Post by dannyboy » Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:27 am

Those are fair points but I still think that the special thing about Jane’s was that chemistry between the 4 of them. It had to be Perry, Eric Steve snd Dave. They had such a zeitgeist that here we are talking about them all these years later. And not just us, so many great bands will name drop them at any given chance, from prodigy to Pearl Jam to deftones.

I honestly don’t think they’d have had the impact they did without Dave (or Eric or Stephen).

GGU has some of the Jane’s magic but we could still easily criticize Perry and Eric’s post JA output.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#18 Post by Tyler Durden » Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:34 am

No one from Jane’s Addiction has done anything interesting since the mid 90s. They’re all past their best before date.

As for the critique of Dave Navarro as a musician, it’s an absurd premise and people are splitting hairs. Regardless of his current state, he was a guitar god in the 80s and 90s.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#19 Post by autumnan » Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:08 am

elbuitre wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:54 am
Personal favourite is No One's Leaving. It doesn't sound like any other guitarist (that I know of) and Dave doesn't simply play a version of the bassline with extra licks
Yeah, No One's Leaving is a total banger. I don't know of it appearing in the early sets, is it a later written song?
elbuitre wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:54 am
Also, his song-writing ability shouldn't be conflated with his guitar-playing. Totally different skills.
:nod:

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#20 Post by Stickyfingers » Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:44 pm

dannyboy wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:27 am

I honestly don’t think they’d have had the impact they did without Dave (or Eric or Stephen).
I don't know how Janes would have sounded with another guitarist, better or worse who knows.

But Janes Addiction did exist before Dave, when Eric and Perry got together and wrote down (almost) all the songs on the first three albums between 85 and 86.
They played live with various guitarists and the songs were ready. These are facts, not opinions.

Dave Jerden and Perry did a great job on NS and RDLH on little Dave guitar sound.

Just compare XXX album to NS.
Pigs in zen in XXX album it's average LA 87 punk, on NS has a "guitar god" sound.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#21 Post by REA » Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:03 pm

Im no guitar or music nerd but my opinion is...
Dave was a cog that made Janes unique and what it was for anyone that gave a shit about them untill 1991 .

That's why he just like Eric will always have a pass to come back

He's really the only polarizing member
from Janes between 1994 till whenever Inkmaster wasn't a thing anymore

In 2023 Janes is a novelty act, no matter who's in the line up , I'd rather see the original members still play the same 15 songs with an occasional flash of past or maybe new brilliance then some other player filling in

If Dave wants no part of this new relapse I hope Frusciante can be swayed to fill in

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#22 Post by dharma bum » Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:58 am

There is a definitive Navarro sound, I’d say, in terms of the scales/modalities, licks, riffs, voicings, technique and guitar tone. That sound is basically rooted in the pentatonic, dorian and mixolydian scales with the odd dissonant note thrown in every now and then to create a sense of eeriness. Add some delay and there you go. It’s basically a melting pot of mainly Page, Van Halen, Ash/Smith and to a lesser degree Hendrix. Apparently he was some sort of a whizz kid in terms of capability in the 80s. In today’s terms he is tehcnically good, but not exceptional compared to e.g. Vai (virtuoso), Hendrix (reimagined guitar) or some of the kids on YouTube. Got to say, though, that he’s got a very good sense of phrasing and melody and this is what used to make his playing magic. I use the word used because the magic has been gone since the late 90’s. I saw them on the Strays tour and he appeared most uninspired - literally not wanting to be there - shouting at his guitar tech and copping young chicks from the audience in the small theater they were playing in. He needs creative writing partners in order for him to shine since he basically adds textures on ready painted canvases. His own output, whilst semi-interesting from a curiosity point of view, lacks direction. The initial Spread recordings had some magic in them but the songs were incomplete. The production (Creed/Nickelback meets NIN) on the released solo album ruined that magic.

Perhaps he’s in a place where he doesn’t see a point in/need for musicianship as his main source of inspiration and income? This seems to have been the case ever since the Spread TV/Radio initiatives and, later on, Ink Master. And street art now being the passion of the moment. You know, career switch, new hobbies, downshifting etc. These things happen. He’s human, after all.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#23 Post by CaseyContrarian » Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:50 am

dharma bum wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:58 am
There is a definitive Navarro sound, I’d say, in terms of the scales/modalities, licks, riffs, voicings, technique and guitar tone. That sound is basically rooted in the pentatonic, dorian and mixolydian scales with the odd dissonant note thrown in every now and then to create a sense of eeriness. Add some delay and there you go. It’s basically a melting pot of mainly Page, Van Halen, Ash/Smith and to a lesser degree Hendrix. Apparently he was some sort of a whizz kid in terms of capability in the 80s. In today’s terms he is tehcnically good, but not exceptional compared to e.g. Vai (virtuoso), Hendrix (reimagined guitar) or some of the kids on YouTube. Got to say, though, that he’s got a very good sense of phrasing and melody and this is what used to make his playing magic. I use the word used because the magic has been gone since the late 90’s. I saw them on the Strays tour and he appeared most uninspired - literally not wanting to be there - shouting at his guitar tech and copping young chicks from the audience in the small theater they were playing in. He needs creative writing partners in order for him to shine since he basically adds textures on ready painted canvases. His own output, whilst semi-interesting from a curiosity point of view, lacks direction. The initial Spread recordings had some magic in them but the songs were incomplete. The production (Creed/Nickelback meets NIN) on the released solo album ruined that magic.

Perhaps he’s in a place where he doesn’t see a point in/need for musicianship as his main source of inspiration and income? This seems to have been the case ever since the Spread TV/Radio initiatives and, later on, Ink Master. And street art now being the passion of the moment. You know, career switch, new hobbies, downshifting etc. These things happen. He’s human, after all.
Correct! :aoa: :banana: :aoa: :banana: :aoa: :banana:

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#24 Post by lucio » Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:08 am

Since Dave is a metal fan, I'm surprised he didn't do a heavier sound after Strays. Panic Channel was disappointing, can't get thru an entire song on it I wouldve liked to have heard him do a White Zombie kind of thing; heavy dance-able alternative but with better guitar playing. The White Zombie live performances had what I liked about the early Jane's Addiction live shows, plus the dreads.

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58PZHd5GbaU

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#25 Post by Tyler Durden » Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:49 am

I liked White Zombie when they were a noise rock band in the NYC underground. And when they evolved into alt metal, I dug the two studio albums they made for Geffen. But during the early to mid 90s, they were a pretty weak live act. They had an infamously bad performance at one of the MTV Awards. And Rob Zombie can’t sing live.



As for The Panic Channel, they might’ve had a fighting chance during the post-grunge rock movement of the mid to late 90s…but they were about 10 years too late; they sounded dated as fuck. Even in 1997, when this kind of music was popular, I wouldn’t have been down with it. By the numbers “alternative rock”, made for radio and to sell a shit ton of CDs within a relatively short window. Post-grunge, nu metal, pop-punk, etc…the late 90s was such a lame time for rock music. There was some good rock music at the time…but it was mostly a tsunami of shit. :lol:

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