Advice

[Pure Method]

I really just don't get it... that Starships song has a "Skrillex" vibe halfway through, after seeming to make fun of 90s shitty white-girl beach-party music (cf. Len "Steal My Sunshine")...

On the face of it, it's shitty pop... but... there's something weird going on. Someone working with her, or she herself... is intentionally making a joke out of some of it, somehow... and I have no idea why.

at least it's self-aware and somewhat subversive, rather than katy perry for example. this is not a conversation we could have about her or her music. the mere fact that we are talking about the state of women and how our society treats, objectifies, and values them AS A DIRECT RESULT of her music is a good thing.

Are you sure that it *is* self-aware? I was only saying that it *seems* to be, and that that would be a great explanation. But I also have suspicions that it's not about any of the stuff you mention, and entirely about getting hits on Youtube and making money, which is identical to Katy Perry in function, if not form. It's doubtful that the people involved actually care about fostering dialogue.

Who cares what they are ACTUALLY concerned with. I agree, they are certainly promoting controversy to get hits, but that controversy promotes/(d) (this) dialogue. We can't ever actually know what these people hold in their hearts, and I firmly believe it does not matter - their actions are the only basis we have for judgment. Trying to divine what they believe seems both impossible and beside the point.

Aside, @67 - how is nicki minaj pretending to be something she's not, exactly?

[Hype]

I really just don't get it... that Starships song has a "Skrillex" vibe halfway through, after seeming to make fun of 90s shitty white-girl beach-party music (cf. Len "Steal My Sunshine")...

On the face of it, it's shitty pop... but... there's something weird going on. Someone working with her, or she herself... is intentionally making a joke out of some of it, somehow... and I have no idea why.

at least it's self-aware and somewhat subversive, rather than katy perry for example. this is not a conversation we could have about her or her music. the mere fact that we are talking about the state of women and how our society treats, objectifies, and values them AS A DIRECT RESULT of her music is a good thing.

Are you sure that it *is* self-aware? I was only saying that it *seems* to be, and that that would be a great explanation. But I also have suspicions that it's not about any of the stuff you mention, and entirely about getting hits on Youtube and making money, which is identical to Katy Perry in function, if not form. It's doubtful that the people involved actually care about fostering dialogue.

Who cares what they are ACTUALLY concerned with. I agree, they are certainly promoting controversy to get hits, but that controversy promotes/(d) (this) dialogue. We can't ever actually know what these people hold in their hearts, and I firmly believe it does not matter - their actions are the only basis we have for judgment. Trying to divine what they believe seems both impossible and beside the point.

So... like... did Jonathan Swift want us to eat Irish children, or what?

[JOEinPHX]

Because she's pretending to be Lady Gaga.

Nicki Minaj: 2008



*POOF* Lady Gaga appears

Nicki Minaj: 2012

[Pure Method]

I really just don't get it... that Starships song has a "Skrillex" vibe halfway through, after seeming to make fun of 90s shitty white-girl beach-party music (cf. Len "Steal My Sunshine")...

On the face of it, it's shitty pop... but... there's something weird going on. Someone working with her, or she herself... is intentionally making a joke out of some of it, somehow... and I have no idea why.

at least it's self-aware and somewhat subversive, rather than katy perry for example. this is not a conversation we could have about her or her music. the mere fact that we are talking about the state of women and how our society treats, objectifies, and values them AS A DIRECT RESULT of her music is a good thing.

Are you sure that it *is* self-aware? I was only saying that it *seems* to be, and that that would be a great explanation. But I also have suspicions that it's not about any of the stuff you mention, and entirely about getting hits on Youtube and making money, which is identical to Katy Perry in function, if not form. It's doubtful that the people involved actually care about fostering dialogue.

Who cares what they are ACTUALLY concerned with. I agree, they are certainly promoting controversy to get hits, but that controversy promotes/(d) (this) dialogue. We can't ever actually know what these people hold in their hearts, and I firmly believe it does not matter - their actions are the only basis we have for judgment. Trying to divine what they believe seems both impossible and beside the point.

So... like... did Jonathan Swift want us to eat Irish children, or what?

So, because you don't fully comprehend her satire or, as you seem to have it, her satire/commentary isn't as well-executed as the most celebrated instance of modern political satire, therefore it isn't on purpose or isn't meaningful? I don't understand your beef with her. You know she does characters, but for some reason you think she might be incapable of irony? that seems awfully patronizing and arbitrary.

@67...I get your point, but this is the classic fan-boi sell-out argument. What loyalty does she have to her past image? Does she have to remain a classical hip-hop idol frozen in amber forever? The world isn't still stuck in 2008, why should she be?

[Artemis]

To me Nicki Minaj seems to be poking fun at hip hop pop in general and exploiting the market. I mean, she saw the opportunity and seized it. It won't be long before she's forgotten, may as well cash in while she can.Her persona is a mix of a bunch of female performers. In that Monster song Grace Jones came to mind. She's recently hooked up with Madonna on a song, didn't she?

I find her voice annoying so I can't get into listening to her.

[Hype]

So, because you don't fully comprehend her satire or, as you seem to have it, her satire/commentary isn't as well-executed as the most celebrated instance of modern political satire, therefore it isn't on purpose or isn't meaningful? I don't understand your beef with her. You know she does characters, but for some reason you think she might be incapable of irony? that seems awfully patronizing and arbitrary.

You keep attributing things to me that don't follow from anything I've said. Did I say she was incapable of irony? I just said it's unclear whether that *is* what it is, in a way that, e.g., suggesting we eat poor children to solve economic problems isn't. That also doesn't say that I don't understand *her satire*, because IF it *is* satire, then I clearly do understand it. What I said was that I'm not sure that it *is* satire. A subtle distinction.

[Pure Method]

So, because you don't fully comprehend her satire or, as you seem to have it, her satire/commentary isn't as well-executed as the most celebrated instance of modern political satire, therefore it isn't on purpose or isn't meaningful? I don't understand your beef with her. You know she does characters, but for some reason you think she might be incapable of irony? that seems awfully patronizing and arbitrary.

You keep attributing things to me that don't follow from anything I've said. Did I say she was incapable of irony? I just said it's unclear whether that *is* what it is, in a way that, e.g., suggesting we eat poor children to solve economic problems isn't. That also doesn't say that I don't understand *her satire*, because IF it *is* satire, then I clearly do understand it. What I said was that I'm not sure that it *is* satire. A subtle distinction.

Sure, maybe I misrepresented your lack of certainty as doubt (though I'm not sure they are in any way different). What's strange is her satire/irony seems readily apparent to many other people. Maybe the coverage of her is vastly different in Canada, but it's not like it's a secret that she's putting on an act, playing on supposedly rigid definitions of stardom, femininity, and music. If you walked up to someone on the street and said "Nicki Minaj seems self-aware," they'd give you an award for understatement.

[Hype]

So, because you don't fully comprehend her satire or, as you seem to have it, her satire/commentary isn't as well-executed as the most celebrated instance of modern political satire, therefore it isn't on purpose or isn't meaningful? I don't understand your beef with her. You know she does characters, but for some reason you think she might be incapable of irony? that seems awfully patronizing and arbitrary.

You keep attributing things to me that don't follow from anything I've said. Did I say she was incapable of irony? I just said it's unclear whether that *is* what it is, in a way that, e.g., suggesting we eat poor children to solve economic problems isn't. That also doesn't say that I don't understand *her satire*, because IF it *is* satire, then I clearly do understand it. What I said was that I'm not sure that it *is* satire. A subtle distinction.

Sure, maybe I misrepresented your lack of certainty as doubt (though I'm not sure they are in any way different). What's strange is her satire/irony seems readily apparent to many other people. Maybe the coverage of her is vastly different in Canada, but it's not like it's a secret that she's putting on an act, playing on supposedly rigid definitions of stardom, femininity, and music. If you walked up to someone on the street and said "Nicki Minaj seems self-aware," they'd give you an award for understatement.

You think 13 year old girls who listen to that shit actually know what that would even mean?

[Pure Method]

No, probably not - but many of her fans are adults. But that's beside the point. Just because someone doesn't understand a complex idea or commentary, doesn't necessarily mean that being exposed to it does harm. Sure, Nicki's wanton sexuality might be considered by some an inappropriate influence on a 13 y/o girl, but I would argue that this is only the case if that behavior is directly aped. I think pride, rather than shame, in sexuality is a good thing, and an important development for our society, especially in the case of women who have continuously had their sexuality demonized (as a group and by society at large, obviously I don't mean every woman ever). You don't have to understand the tongue-in-cheek nature of her characters, over-the-top dressing, or even lyrics to understand her pride and confidence, both as a woman and an individual.

I realize I just started an entirely new debate, but I think I laid out why I support and respect Nicki Minaj despite the fact that I don't care for her music.

[Hype]

Meh.

[Pandemonium]

Seriously guys, wtf?

[Pure Method]

Seriously guys, wtf?

[SR]

Ironically, her music in its current form portrays her as a "Stupid Hoe".

Not good for feminism. Not good for women. Not good for people.

Unfortunately, 'feminism' today has sometimes turned into a woman's/girl's 'right' to be sexualized.

Not good.

As a man, i don't think you have a right to say what is "good" for feminism. There are different types of feminists and if a woman wants to call herself a bitch or a ho and reclaim it, men have absolutely no right to say that isn't good for that woman. It goes back to slut shaming and other such issues. I am so tired of men trying to say what a woman should act like or identify as. Why can't a woman talk about her sexuality if she wants to or dress "like a slut"? It's her prerogative and none of your business.

I've had this problem lately with lupe fiasco's song "bitch bad" which has the lyrics "bitch bad, woman good, lady better". like he has any fucking right to tell a woman what she should be like and what is better for her.

Fg, may I get your age?

[farrellgirl99]

Ironically, her music in its current form portrays her as a "Stupid Hoe".

Not good for feminism. Not good for women. Not good for people.

Unfortunately, 'feminism' today has sometimes turned into a woman's/girl's 'right' to be sexualized.

Not good.

As a man, i don't think you have a right to say what is "good" for feminism. There are different types of feminists and if a woman wants to call herself a bitch or a ho and reclaim it, men have absolutely no right to say that isn't good for that woman. It goes back to slut shaming and other such issues. I am so tired of men trying to say what a woman should act like or identify as. Why can't a woman talk about her sexuality if she wants to or dress "like a slut"? It's her prerogative and none of your business.

I've had this problem lately with lupe fiasco's song "bitch bad" which has the lyrics "bitch bad, woman good, lady better". like he has any fucking right to tell a woman what she should be like and what is better for her.

Fg, may I get your age?

This can't be a good sign I'm 21

[SR]

Ironically, her music in its current form portrays her as a "Stupid Hoe".

Not good for feminism. Not good for women. Not good for people.

Unfortunately, 'feminism' today has sometimes turned into a woman's/girl's 'right' to be sexualized.

Not good.

As a man, i don't think you have a right to say what is "good" for feminism. There are different types of feminists and if a woman wants to call herself a bitch or a ho and reclaim it, men have absolutely no right to say that isn't good for that woman. It goes back to slut shaming and other such issues. I am so tired of men trying to say what a woman should act like or identify as. Why can't a woman talk about her sexuality if she wants to or dress "like a slut"? It's her prerogative and none of your business.

I've had this problem lately with lupe fiasco's song "bitch bad" which has the lyrics "bitch bad, woman good, lady better". like he has any fucking right to tell a woman what she should be like and what is better for her.

Fg, may I get your age?

This can't be a good sign I'm 21

Not at all. I think that men do have a part in feminism though. After all without us, it would never have been necessary. In general it is an empowering reaction to disproportionate distributions of power, respect, and fair treatment. Anything a woman might do to reverse or slow that seems counter productive. I hope I am seeing feminism incorrectly, but any facimile of old archetypes raised under the banner of feminism seems like a tragic reproduction leading no where. As for us, as with any, area where discrimination exists we simply ( and I mean it's simple) treat women equally, free of personal and societal agendas. In the business and academic circles I have been involved in, there isn't anymore divide.

[Pure Method]

In my classes, whenever discussing a hypothetical involving a lawyer, my professors always use "she" in reference to the lawyer.

[farrellgirl99]

Ironically, her music in its current form portrays her as a "Stupid Hoe".

Not good for feminism. Not good for women. Not good for people.

Unfortunately, 'feminism' today has sometimes turned into a woman's/girl's 'right' to be sexualized.

Not good.

As a man, i don't think you have a right to say what is "good" for feminism. There are different types of feminists and if a woman wants to call herself a bitch or a ho and reclaim it, men have absolutely no right to say that isn't good for that woman. It goes back to slut shaming and other such issues. I am so tired of men trying to say what a woman should act like or identify as. Why can't a woman talk about her sexuality if she wants to or dress "like a slut"? It's her prerogative and none of your business.

I've had this problem lately with lupe fiasco's song "bitch bad" which has the lyrics "bitch bad, woman good, lady better". like he has any fucking right to tell a woman what she should be like and what is better for her.

Fg, may I get your age?

This can't be a good sign I'm 21

Not at all. I think that men do have a part in feminism though. After all without us, it would never have been necessary. In general it is an empowering reaction to disproportionate distributions of power, respect, and fair treatment. Anything a woman might do to reverse or slow that seems counter productive. I hope I am seeing feminism incorrectly, but any facimile of old archetypes raised under the banner of feminism seems like a tragic reproduction leading no where. As for us, as with any, area where discrimination exists we simply ( and I mean it's simple) treat women equally, free of personal and societal agendas. In the business and academic circles I have been involved in, there isn't anymore divide.

Although there are still major issues out there (equal pay for example is still tragically not a reality in many places - women get paid .65 cents to a man's dollar on average, and the figures are even less for women of color), I would agree that the inequalities that women face everyday have shifted. And I also agree that the best way to counteract discrimination is to treat everyone equally from the start.

But there are still tons of ways out there that women are oppressed or pigeonholed in to a stereotype or gender role. As we live in a patriarchal society, these things are evident everywhere. I don't have the time right now to go into great detail, but I feel there is so much left to fight. And as I alluded to earlier, there is no right way to be a feminist, and of course that includes men who are feminists as well. I used to believe in a more strict, traditional mindset where I thought being a feminist meant "respecting my body" by not pandering to men and not being a "slut" and refusing to wear heels (this is just one example, of course). Then I realized after reading a lot of great things, that my idea of feminism was just as good as the girl who likes to wears heels and sleep around's idea of feminism. So if a girl wants to dress up like a "whore" and say the word cunt a lot and act vulgar, than good for her. Not my place to judge, and certainly not another man's place to judge.

So I personally dont think its about rehashing old archetypes (not even sure what exactly you mean by that anyway). I think it's about crushing patriarchal ideals and reclaiming them. I proudly call myself a bitch all the time. I say fuck you to guys on the street who cat call me (I could rant about that for days and days). I am not "lady like". And some guys probably find that unattractive or backwards or whatever but I don't give two shits. I think it's fair to say that women are judged more critically than men for how they act, especially sexually, and thats one of the reasons why I'll keep fighting for a more equal playing field.

Not even sure if this makes sense, but unfortunately dont have the time to articulate a better response.

[Hype]

In my classes, whenever discussing a hypothetical involving a lawyer, my professors always use "she" in reference to the lawyer.

Standard gender-neutral practice in academia is 'she' first, and then 'he', for hypothetical subjects. I prefer 'they' in spite of prescriptivist inability to recognize its use as a singular.

[Essence_Smith]

Lord have mercy...homegirl...Nicki is NOT advancing females...we can just agree to disagree on that one if you like her...the very fact that you really don't have many alternatives in the style and presentation of females in rap music says a LOT to me...

[SR]

I completely ignored why I asked the question and what your answer was. I usually engage people here like I do in person and I wouldn't have this conversation with a woman of 21. Fg, you are obviously a woman of high conscience and intelligence, for real.

I am a good example of a stupid old man

[farrellgirl99]

Lord have mercy...homegirl...Nicki is NOT advancing females...we can just agree to disagree on that one if you like her...the very fact that you really don't have many alternatives in the style and presentation of females in rap music says a LOT to me...

explain the part about the presentation of females in rap because i dont know what youre getting at. i dont know what says a LOT to you, especially if it pertains to how you are viewing me.

also, i dont think i ever said nicki was advancing females, whatever the fuck that means. its not her job to "advance" females.

we can move this example to Azealia Banks if Nicki causes you so many problems. im talking about the issue of female representation, not just nicki minaj.

[Hype]

Nina Hagen kinda already won at gender-representation in music, imho.

[JOEinPHX]

Nina Hagen kinda already won at gender-representation in music, imho.

is that the chick from The Cardigans?

[Hype]

Nina Hagen kinda already won at gender-representation in music, imho.

is that the chick from The Cardigans?

[Pure Method]

@ES I made the claim that Nicki's confident sexuality makes her a positive role model for females though I firmly believe this not only makes her a positive role model to women but all people. there is something to be said about her success as an entrepreneur, too. feel free to disagree.