bruce springsteen
Re: bruce springsteen
no joke, if somebody asked me to make a "top ten list of things you find uninteresting" bruce springsteen would be near the top.
Re: bruce springsteen
All my flirting in 6th grade was based on this video. I fixed that the following year.Adurentibus Spina wrote:perkana wrote:oh ok...I just never liked Bad.
Re: bruce springsteen
I took that to be at least included in this: "morphing his ethnicity". And I think what he did to his face, while tragic, has nothing to do with what he did or didn't do with kids. Like I said, if you had vitiligo, you might end up doing some fucked up things to try to make yourself look normal again (and fail).perkana wrote:I think he referred more to him changing his appearance re: nose...Didn't see any skin color reference
I think Dave Chappelle's bit on this sums it up:Haha, how funny life turns out to be sometimes. I do that sometimes (defending something/someone I don't even like that much in the first place)
And he was really fucked up because of being subjected to abuse by his dad. But still, he shouldn't have abused those children either.
What I always found fucked up about the whole thing is how many people/handlers Michael must have had around him at almost all times, and how many times these people could have stepped in to stop his more destructive behaviours, but didn't. I believe a fucked up human like MJ has diminished responsibility, and ought to be treated as such.
- Pandemonium
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Re: bruce springsteen
His skin color and hair was the least of his physical alterations. He willfully had his face re-sculpted to a more Caucasian appearance to the point his nose basically disintegrated. I guess I should have been more accurate in my description - he wasn't trying to change his ethnicity, he was trying to change his species.Adurentibus Spina wrote:I took that to be at least included in this: "morphing his ethnicity". And I think what he did to his face, while tragic, has nothing to do with what he did or didn't do with kids. Like I said, if you had vitiligo, you might end up doing some fucked up things to try to make yourself look normal again (and fail).
http://anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html
He lost any pass when he repeatedly took advantage of young boys and paid off equally repulsive parents who put their kids in the position to be abused.Adurentibus Spina wrote:I believe a fucked up human like MJ has diminished responsibility, and ought to be treated as such.
Re: bruce springsteen
Maybe to push this back towards the thread topic... there are a couple of different ways the original question could be answered.
Pandemonium's lack of "respect" for Michael Jackson seems to be in terms of 'respect as a human being'... sort of like...not respecting Hitler's paintings. And that is supposed to be separate from the question of whether you like the art.
But I think this is muddled. Maybe some people tie art and morality together in this way (Pandemonium seems to), but I don't think this is a very clear way of talking about art. E.g., Wagner was a raging anti-semite, but I love quite a lot of his music, artistically speaking.
Pandemonium's lack of "respect" for Michael Jackson seems to be in terms of 'respect as a human being'... sort of like...not respecting Hitler's paintings. And that is supposed to be separate from the question of whether you like the art.
But I think this is muddled. Maybe some people tie art and morality together in this way (Pandemonium seems to), but I don't think this is a very clear way of talking about art. E.g., Wagner was a raging anti-semite, but I love quite a lot of his music, artistically speaking.
In Bruce Springsteen's case, I respect what he does because I think it's well executed. I don't like it because... taste.Wilde, Preface to The Picture of Dorian Gray wrote:The artist is the creator of beautiful things. To reveal art and conceal the artist is art's aim. The critic is he who can translate into another manner or a new material his impression of beautiful things.
The highest as the lowest form of criticism is a mode of autobiography. Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming. This is a fault.
Those who find beautiful meanings in beautiful things are the cultivated. For these there is hope. They are the elect to whom beautiful things mean only beauty.
There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all.
Re: bruce springsteen
I think you assume a lot of things hyper Just saying...
Re: bruce springsteen
It also begs the question of what is art. Here it appears to be defined as that which is beautiful.....leaving no other definition, nor, stipulating this definition, that beauty cannot have an imposter.
Re: bruce springsteen
Critaical theory has much debate on what Wilde said there, and not just from the academy....by artists from Aristotle to Lacan, and more.
Re: bruce springsteen
In this context, yeah, Perkana, you're right, I'm not giving a lecture in aesthetics, so I'm presenting my view without arguing about its foundations. I'm also rejecting an alternative view fairly quickly.
SR, your point is right, but "begs the question" is a technical phrase meaning something has a "circular" justification -- you probably meant "raises the question". Defining something isn't begging the question. Suppose we have Wilde's definition and you find things that you want to call 'art' that don't conform to that definition. It wouldn't follow that the definition is circular, but you could argue either that we need two concepts of art, or that yours is broader and captures everything Wilde's does and more (and is therefore better), or you can argue that Wilde should be committed to your broader definition on his own terms.
It may be that there is room for an aesthetic concept that captures moral sense (cf. Kant's Critique of Judgment), but probably this is the wrong place for discussing that.
SR, your point is right, but "begs the question" is a technical phrase meaning something has a "circular" justification -- you probably meant "raises the question". Defining something isn't begging the question. Suppose we have Wilde's definition and you find things that you want to call 'art' that don't conform to that definition. It wouldn't follow that the definition is circular, but you could argue either that we need two concepts of art, or that yours is broader and captures everything Wilde's does and more (and is therefore better), or you can argue that Wilde should be committed to your broader definition on his own terms.
It may be that there is room for an aesthetic concept that captures moral sense (cf. Kant's Critique of Judgment), but probably this is the wrong place for discussing that.
Re: bruce springsteen
Interesting discussion
Re: bruce springsteen
When I wrote 'begs' I was fully aware of the formal implications. I chose not to make the amendment thinking everyone would know what I was trying to get at. I'm not horrible with the fallacies of reason both formal and informal.
Re: bruce springsteen
It's important not to attribute a weaker position to your opponent than the one they actually have, though. If I define 'art' as that which is beautiful (in some sense of that term), and you come along and say "Nu uhh... there's this other kind of art... non-beautiful art." Then one way of responding to this is to say: well, I'm talking about a specific concept, namely, the concept of beautiful things. If the things you think are non-beautiful art are 'art' in the sense I'm using it, then I should be able to show how these things turn out to be beautiful after all. If I can't do this, then you may try to convince me that the concept of 'art' I am using contains in it further features that require me to accept your definition rather than my own. For example, it may be that the features that I think constitute 'beauty' equally apply to non-beautiful art, and therefore I was wrong to think that I was committed only to beautiful things being art.SR wrote:When I wrote 'begs' I was fully aware of the formal implications. I chose not to make the amendment thinking everyone would know what I was trying to get at. I'm not horrible with the fallacies of reason both formal and informal.
Re: bruce springsteen
I do not respond as opposition, but one to present an alternate point and perhaps learrn a bit in the process to fortify my position or alter it. Even philosophy can't clarify what is beautiful from centuries of discussion and debate.Adurentibus Spina wrote:It's important not to attribute a weaker position to your opponent than the one they actually have, though. If I define 'art' as that which is beautiful (in some sense of that term), and you come along and say "Nu uhh... there's this other kind of art... non-beautiful art." Then one way of responding to this is to say: well, I'm talking about a specific concept, namely, the concept of beautiful things. If the things you think are non-beautiful art are 'art' in the sense I'm using it, then I should be able to show how these things turn out to be beautiful after all. If I can't do this, then you may try to convince me that the concept of 'art' I am using contains in it further features that require me to accept your definition rather than my own. For example, it may be that the features that I think constitute 'beauty' equally apply to non-beautiful art, and therefore I was wrong to think that I was committed only to beautiful things being art.SR wrote:When I wrote 'begs' I was fully aware of the formal implications. I chose not to make the amendment thinking everyone would know what I was trying to get at. I'm not horrible with the fallacies of reason both formal and informal.
Coleridge stated that in asking what art is, one is nearly asking who/what the artist is. This very issue came up when the photo of DN came up here with a JWG clown painting. I submit that DN did not merely find the painting beautiful per se. He too was attracted to the unspeakable darkness that the artist brought to it. Of course, I do not know for sure, but the foundations for this assumption are that I do not see the beauty per se in the painting. Additionally, I take into account DN's tragic history (one that has dynamics that I can easily surmise are deep and profoundly confusing), and finally that DN knows whereof this painting was originated.
Coleridge can speak for himself...."For it is a distinction resulting from the poetic genius itself, which sustains and modifies the images, thoughts, and emotion's of the poet's own mind. The poet describes in ideal perfection, brings the whole soul of man into activity, with the subordination of faculties to eachother, according to their relative worth and dignity. He diffuses a tone, and spirit of unity, that blends, and (as it were) fuses, each into each, by that synthetic and magical power, to which we have exclusively appropriated the name of imagination. This power, first put in action by the will and understanding, and retained under their irremissive, though gentle and unnoticed controul (laxis effertur habenis) reveals itself in the balance or reconciliation of opposite or discordant qualities: of sameness, with difference; of the general with the concrete; the idea, with the image; the individual, with the representative; the sense of novelty and freshness, with the old and familiar objects; a more than usual state of emotion, with more than usual order; judgement ever awake and steady self possession, with enthusiasm and feeling profound or vehement; and while it blends and harmonizes the natural and the artificial, still subordinates art to nature; the matter to the matter; and our admiration of the poet to our sympathy with the poetry."
I see no reason why the artist can't or even ought to be considered to at least a marginal degree when assessing beauty in art.
Re: bruce springsteen
I agree that an assessment of the artist may play a role in what people find beautiful in art... that's why I said Pandemonium seems to be doing it. The question is whether we're really talking about *just art* at that point. I admit, my position draws a stark functional distinction between art and aspects of the objects that many others may include in the evaluation of the art. But there is something to this that Wilde is right to lean on, I think. Part of the problem is the interplay between objective and subjective elements of judgment. You're right to point out that the subjective element plays a deep role in the things people may have a taste for -- ala the Dave Navarro case you raise. But the objection from the distinct-function reading of art will say that in actual fact Dave is not appreciating the art qua art in that case. He is engaged in something else (psychotherapy or catharsis or whatever, which is not a necessary or sufficient component of art; this is obvious, I think, since many things that are not art could become fetish objects or therapeutic in the same way, and there is art that doesn't do this). But again, you're right that ordinarily we may not distinguish between objects which are simultaneously art (even bad art) and something else, and how they are being appreciated or judged. But shouldn't we? If, for example, it came to light that Shakespeare was a mass murderer... it may affect our ability to LIKE his works, but does it affect the objective quality of the art qua art? Really?
Re: bruce springsteen
Well fuck you for drawing god into this. Jk
Really, the question before your q on Shakes is if he was a mass murderer, could he have been capable of the unspeakably beautiful body of work. Facinating question really. My knee jerk response is no, he could not. But he was, by all accounts, a prick.
Really, the question before your q on Shakes is if he was a mass murderer, could he have been capable of the unspeakably beautiful body of work. Facinating question really. My knee jerk response is no, he could not. But he was, by all accounts, a prick.
Re: bruce springsteen
You can see why I think it's an important question. I think you're right that it's a fascinating question to ask whether deeply morally corrupt people can be capable of beautiful/genius art. I take it to be conceptually possible: you can suppose that the two features coexist in a single individual and then ask whether the former corrupts the latter. But I think the real question: whether it's actually possible, is an empirical/scientific question -- when a brain is morally defective in measurable ways is it also necessarily artistically defective? We can't answer that.SR wrote:Well fuck you for drawing god into this. Jk
Really, the question before your q on Shakes is if he was a mass murderer, could he have been capable of the unspeakably beautiful body of work. Facinating question really. My knee jerk response is no, he could not. But he was, by all accounts, a prick.
- Pandemonium
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Re: bruce springsteen
If I tied my appreciation and tastes in art solely due to any perceived "morality," I'd have a pretty short list of favorites. A lot of my favorite artists spout off some pretty ridiculous opinions and even a guy like Springsteen is no saint (he was busted cheating on his first wife with the singer in his band who later became his 2nd wife). Doesn't stop me from enjoying their art.Adurentibus Spina wrote:Pandemonium's lack of "respect" for Michael Jackson seems to be in terms of 'respect as a human being'... sort of like...not respecting Hitler's paintings. And that is supposed to be separate from the question of whether you like the art.
But I think this is muddled. Maybe some people tie art and morality together in this way (Pandemonium seems to), but I don't think this is a very clear way of talking about art. E.g., Wagner was a raging anti-semite, but I love quite a lot of his music, artistically speaking.
I just draw the line at pedophiles.
Re: bruce springsteen
I understand the moral objection to pedophilia. And I also understand that from a personal perspective it makes sense to feel more strongly about some bad actions than others, and to therefore treat things associated with people who do those things likewise. But as I've been arguing, I think this does simply go beyond art. It's like not driving a Volkswagen because Hitler is associated with the company. I get why people wouldn't do that. But I don't think the reasons they have have to do with the quality of the vehicles.Pandemonium wrote:I just draw the line at pedophiles.
Re: bruce springsteen
BTW... Michael Jackson never took advantage of any kids. If you still believe what the media/police wanted you to, you're making a mistake.
Michael Jackson simply does not fit any profile of a pedophile. And he just couldn't mess about with children. It's a pointless discussion, really, because there are no proofs whatsoever and there are plenty of texts out there profiling child molesters and Michael Jackson just doesn't fit.
If Hype ever is greatly respected by the academic world I could just sue him for touching my kids or whatever... it doesn't matter if there are no fucking proofs, if my case gets dismissed and even if Hype sues me back and wins. If my legal action gets enough publicity, Hype's reputation would be forever tainted. Nobody likes a guy being charged with child molestation, and the brain doesn't really seem to care whether it's true or not.
Michael Jackson simply does not fit any profile of a pedophile. And he just couldn't mess about with children. It's a pointless discussion, really, because there are no proofs whatsoever and there are plenty of texts out there profiling child molesters and Michael Jackson just doesn't fit.
If Hype ever is greatly respected by the academic world I could just sue him for touching my kids or whatever... it doesn't matter if there are no fucking proofs, if my case gets dismissed and even if Hype sues me back and wins. If my legal action gets enough publicity, Hype's reputation would be forever tainted. Nobody likes a guy being charged with child molestation, and the brain doesn't really seem to care whether it's true or not.
Re: bruce springsteen
Larry B. wrote: Michael Jackson simply does not fit any profile of a pedophile. And he just couldn't mess about with children. It's a pointless discussion, really, because there are no proofs whatsoever and there are plenty of texts out there profiling child molesters and Michael Jackson just doesn't fit.
Re: bruce springsteen
It's ok if you don't understand the intricacy of the human brain and how a fucked up life can distort things. Fucking kids, touching them or making them touch him wasn't how he coped with stuff. Surrounding himself with people who wouldn't judge him or try to steal money from him (i.e., kids) was.
Some times I feat that friends of relatives might thing I'm some kind of child molester. When I go to my brother's house or whenever I'm with my nephews, I spent 90% of my time with them (ages between 9 months and 10 years old.) It's a lot more comfortable for me than being surrounded by bullshitting adults talking about the most stupid crap you could hear. Seriously, why the fuck would I want to know about the food your grandma used to cook on Tuesdays? I'd rather hear how my niece felt when she held a pigeon between her hands or how my 10 year old nephew won the top goalscorer award in a football championship.
How many kids said Michael Jackson touched him? How many kids feared him? Zero. The kids who claimed Michael touched them (one? two?) later said it was all lies made up by their parents.
How many adults said MJ touched their children? How many adults used the N word when talking about him? How many adults mocked him because of his appearance?
American society is the problem. Not Michael Jackson.
Some times I feat that friends of relatives might thing I'm some kind of child molester. When I go to my brother's house or whenever I'm with my nephews, I spent 90% of my time with them (ages between 9 months and 10 years old.) It's a lot more comfortable for me than being surrounded by bullshitting adults talking about the most stupid crap you could hear. Seriously, why the fuck would I want to know about the food your grandma used to cook on Tuesdays? I'd rather hear how my niece felt when she held a pigeon between her hands or how my 10 year old nephew won the top goalscorer award in a football championship.
How many kids said Michael Jackson touched him? How many kids feared him? Zero. The kids who claimed Michael touched them (one? two?) later said it was all lies made up by their parents.
How many adults said MJ touched their children? How many adults used the N word when talking about him? How many adults mocked him because of his appearance?
American society is the problem. Not Michael Jackson.
Re: bruce springsteen
Well, also, there was clearly a bunch of stuff wrong with the guy even if he never molested anyone. The vitiligo/burns and facial surgeries have nothing to do with his actual freakiness, which imho is more to do with his stunted emotional and intellectual growth. There's a clear sense in which he was literally retarded --- failing to understand what was wrong with having kids in his bed even if he wasn't touching them is part of that.
Re: bruce springsteen
larry explain to me how a child identified key elements of jackson's genitals?
Re: bruce springsteen
a big part of the whole hangin out with kids thing is because he missed out on having his own childhood.
- Pandemonium
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- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:18 pm
Re: bruce springsteen
It doesn't help "the brain" if the parents get paid off to drop the charges or to keep their kid from testifying. And it especially makes one's head hurt when it happened again and again.Larry B. wrote:If Hype ever is greatly respected by the academic world I could just sue him for touching my kids or whatever... it doesn't matter if there are no fucking proofs, if my case gets dismissed and even if Hype sues me back and wins. If my legal action gets enough publicity, Hype's reputation would be forever tainted. Nobody likes a guy being charged with child molestation, and the brain doesn't really seem to care whether it's true or not.
I knew this was gonna upset Larry. Good thing there's no Gary Glitter fans on this board.