Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul

[farrellgirl99]

i think the series will end with a walt vs hank moment and only one will survive. i'm sure hank suspects but he can only keep it in for so long.

It would be interesting if it turned into a version of Hamlet, with Walt witnessing the deaths of those he loves (or used to love, anyway), and then committing suicide. That'd be a good message to send about the glamorous "rewards" of being a meth kingpin.

That would be interesting. I think killing off someone like Walt Jr or his daughter would be some really great tv. I don't know if Skylar alone would make the same impact seeing how fucked up their relationship is anyway.

[creep]

i think the series will end with a walt vs hank moment and only one will survive. i'm sure hank suspects but he can only keep it in for so long.

It would be interesting if it turned into a version of Hamlet, with Walt witnessing the deaths of those he loves (or used to love, anyway), and then committing suicide. That'd be a good message to send about the glamorous "rewards" of being a meth kingpin.

That would be interesting. I think killing off someone like Walt Jr or his daughter would be some really great tv. I don't know if Skylar alone would make the same impact seeing how fucked up their relationship is anyway.

i think we can all agree walt jr needs to die.

[Jasper]

i think the series will end with a walt vs hank moment and only one will survive. i'm sure hank suspects but he can only keep it in for so long.

It would be interesting if it turned into a version of Hamlet, with Walt witnessing the deaths of those he loves (or used to love, anyway), and then committing suicide. That'd be a good message to send about the glamorous "rewards" of being a meth kingpin.

Messages.

I will say that the message all along does seem to be that actions have consequences - sometimes consequences which are impossible to predict.

[lollapaloser]

i think the series will end with a walt vs hank moment and only one will survive. i'm sure hank suspects but he can only keep it in for so long.

It would be interesting if it turned into a version of Hamlet, with Walt witnessing the deaths of those he loves (or used to love, anyway), and then committing suicide. That'd be a good message to send about the glamorous "rewards" of being a meth kingpin.

That would be interesting. I think killing off someone like Walt Jr or his daughter would be some really great tv. I don't know if Skylar alone would make the same impact seeing how fucked up their relationship is anyway.

i think we can all agree walt jr needs to die.

Flynn?

[creep]

i think the series will end with a walt vs hank moment and only one will survive. i'm sure hank suspects but he can only keep it in for so long.

It would be interesting if it turned into a version of Hamlet, with Walt witnessing the deaths of those he loves (or used to love, anyway), and then committing suicide. That'd be a good message to send about the glamorous "rewards" of being a meth kingpin.

That would be interesting. I think killing off someone like Walt Jr or his daughter would be some really great tv. I don't know if Skylar alone would make the same impact seeing how fucked up their relationship is anyway.

i think we can all agree walt jr needs to die.

Flynn?

what does this mean?

[jptm]

what does this mean?

'flynn' was the name walter jr. took during season 2 when he didn't want anything to do w/walter sr./aka/heisenberg.

[creep]

what does this mean?

'flynn' was the name walter jr. took during season 2 when he didn't want anything to do w/walter sr./aka/heisenberg.

oh yeah. another reason he should die.

[Juana]

Yeah I agree.

[wally]

[Hype]

But the disabled child trying to be normal is one of the sources of conflict for the Walt character... if you kill him off, you have no reason to have any connection to Walt anymore... with Walt Jr. still alive, Walt Sr. still has the possibility of regaining his humanity... I guess that would be a good way to end it...


Except that's exactly what happens in The Godfather III. The worst Godfather movie.

I decided to see if anyone else had noticed any connections to the Godfather movies, and found this interview Q&A thing with Vince Gilligan (series creator/producer):

Q.
Another supporting player who really came alive this season is Giancarlo Esposito, who plays Gus, the alarmingly even-tempered drug kingpin. Did you foresee the role that he would play in Season 3 when he was introduced in Season 2?

A.
We didn’t quite know the length and breadth of the cartel, north of the border, that he was attempting to build. But we did know he was going to be much more than he initially appeared to be. We loved the idea of an anti-Tuco-type character, our local drug kingpin in Season 1 and early Season 2, who was as unpredictable and abrupt and as scary as they come. Not wanting to repeat that, we figured, gee, the best thing to do is find a guy who is everything that that character is not – and yet who, once you get to really know him and understand him, is every bit as scary in his coldness and his will. Giancarlo Esposito gives a performance that reminds me of Al Pacino as Michael Corleone. He really never lets you know what he’s thinking, and he’s very static and very remote and very poker-faced in his performance. Even when he is sitting there quietly listening to someone else talk, you can’t take your eyes off him.

Q.
I thought I noticed a couple of “Godfather” references in the season finale, like the scene in which Walt is sure he’s going to be assassinated, and asking Mike, Gus’s enforcer, to let him off for old time’s sake.

A.
A little shout-out to Tessio? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what they say: borrow from the best. We do talk about “The Godfather” and “The Godfather Part II” very often in the writers’ room. And any time they’re on TV, even with commercial interruptions, I’ll invariably say, Ah, I’ll just watch five minutes, and then I watch them for hours. I admit to borrowing liberally and being inspired by “The Godfather” and “The Godfather Part II.”

Bah!

[ellis]

The scene where Ted falls and supposedly breaks his neck... oranges fall on the floor. In the Godfather films, oranges were used quite often for color contrast. They were mistaken by fans to mean that a death was coming. There are two times that oranges are present with Don Corleone. One shows him survive an assassination and the other shows his actual death.

This was a clue to the fans that Ted may or may not be dead.

[Hype]

It's cool, I guess, that they're relying on a kind of intertext thing to make it a clever show and whatever... but it would be nice if they didn't just mirror the end of the Godfather trilogy. Kind of hard not to, I guess, since the Godfather series is kind of the archetype of the crime epic for modern humans, sort of the way that Oedipus would've been an archetype for ancients, and ... Macbeth, or something, would've been for early moderns... You can't help but fall into those same tropes.

It just shows how hard it would be to be absolutely groundbreaking.

Still one of the best, if not the best, shows on TV right now though.

[creep]

But the disabled child trying to be normal is one of the sources of conflict for the Walt character... if you kill him off, you have no reason to have any connection to Walt anymore... with Walt Jr. still alive, Walt Sr. still has the possibility of regaining his humanity... I guess that would be a good way to end it...

it was a joke. who really cares about his son? if you want to get serious about who should die the obvious choice is holly white his infant daughter.

[Hype]

But the disabled child trying to be normal is one of the sources of conflict for the Walt character... if you kill him off, you have no reason to have any connection to Walt anymore... with Walt Jr. still alive, Walt Sr. still has the possibility of regaining his humanity... I guess that would be a good way to end it...

it was a joke. who really cares about his son? if you want to get serious about who should die the obvious choice is holly white his infant daughter.

Yeah I know, I was taking it seriously because I think that is exactly the area the show is headed. And I'd forgotten about the daughter. Even better. (The Godfather is all about losing women... and Fredo (... Walt Jr.) ... )

[ellis]

I believe Walt will kill Skyler. She seems to be so afraid of him that she'll do anything to protect herself and family from Walt. That final scene in 05-02 about "family first" was a foreshadowing of things to come. Walt wants to come off as a protector of the family... but it's just creepy and Skyler doesn't react positively to it. I think she's gonna make a move to escape him. Maybe even flip to the DEA.

I'll go out on a limb and say he poisons her breakfast with the ricin...

In the 05-01 episode, we see Walt in a diner eating eggs and spelling his age with bacon--a node to 01-01 when Skyler spells his age with bacon. His fake ID has Skylers maiden name as his fake last name. His wedding band is missing. Seems like it's a way of keeping him connected to her... the fake name, that is. I have a feeling she's either dead or left him. I'm going with dead though and I believe it's his fault.

[jptm]

the baby 'girl' is actually played by 2 baby boys...

[Jasper]

So, what are the opinions about what Walt said to Jesse at the end of the episode 3 where he talks about why Gus iced Victor last season after Victor cooked on his own? Is Walt suggesting someone else may be "flying too close to the sun"? If so, who? Mike? Jesse? Walt & Jesse as a team? Somebody else?

Genius mastermind Vince Gilligan just said in an interview:

We do strive very hard to not answer every question in every episode, so that people can indeed argue over certain moments. We try to come up with as many watercooler moments as we can per episode, and I don't mean just big dramatic moments, but moments in which people can honestly argue about [what a character does]. I love giving the audience stuff that they can argue over in a fun way and not in an angry way. I love fomenting arguments.

Something else Gilligan said about the part where Walt & Walt Jr. were watching Scarface:

There's that great line that Bryan Cranston ad-libbed that is not in the script for the episode: "Everybody dies in this movie." Who knows if that's foreshadowing or not.

[Jasper]

Oh yeah, forgot to add the insect guy who disabled the nanny cam. That was another theory I heard, and it makes some sense, or you could see it making some sense in Walt's delusional mind.

[Juana]

Oh yeah, forgot to add the insect guy who took disabled the nanny cam. That was another theory I heard, and it makes some sense, or you could see it making some sense in Walt's delusional mind.

Yeah I thought about that too like someone else was trying to move in on their product and he was thinking like that

[ellis]

I want to talk about the story of Icarus for a moment... b/c of the reference Mr White made about flying to close to the sun. It's really odd b/c just about a week or two ago, my wife and I were browsing netflix and found some old shows from Jim Henson that reenacted some Greek mythology with puppets and live actors. We watching only one... and it happened to be about Icarus!

The story of Icarus is an old Greek story. Icarus is the son of Daedalus who happens to be one of the most talented inventor and craftsman of the time. His son Icarus is incredibly clumsy and simply doesn't have the talents his father has, which is frustrating for his father to deal with. One day, Daedalus' nephew Perdix visits and he's incredibly talented--almost more talented than Daedalus is! Perdix could figure anything out! He was incredibly smart and analytical. As it pertains to the myth, he looked at a bird and could identify exactly why the bird can fly. This impresses Daedalus very much... but he was sad and frustrated and felt like the Gods cursed him with the wrong son. Ultimately, this leads to Daedalus killing Perdix out of jealousy and he he throws Perdix from a rooftop to his death. The father and son flee the city. For many years, Daedalus and Icarus carry on and eventually Daedalus gets work to build a large labyrinth to hold a minotaur. But rather than exploring all of these other stories... we will explore how this relationship applies to Breaking Bad. Daedalus and Icarus build giant wings and go flying one day over the sea. But Daedalus gives him two important rules: "1.) Don't fly too close to the water b/c the sea spray will weigh you down and crash. 2.) Don't fly too close to the sun or the heat will melt the wax/glue that holds the feathers on." They flew for awhile before Icarus decides to try to impress his father by flying very high. The wax/glue melts and eventually Icarus falls to his death. Daedalus is crushed with sadness.

There are many interpretations to this story... many believe Daedalus knew Icarus would not listen b/c he never did. Icarus was clumsy and in many ways an embarrassment to Daedalus. Many think that Daedalus couldn't bring himself to kill Icarus so he set him up to die through his own ignorance and clumsiness.

My thoughts:
Daedalus = Walter White
Icarus = Jesse Pinkman (or Walt Jr.)
Perdix = Gale (or Jesse Pinkman)

I think this story was mentioned b/c Walter White is going to set jesse up to die b/c he can't bring himself to kill him. It's also got another angle... in that it's a reference to the past with Gale. Meaning Gale was the partner(son) that he wished he had. Or one could say that Jesse is the son he wished he had but instead he has a handicapped son.

You could go any number of directions with the dynamics of the relations between the characters of these two stories.

I thank Jim Henson for this knowledge.

[Jasper]

The theory makes sense aside from the fact that Walt needs Jesse if he doesn't want to do all that difficult moving and cooking work alone. It would be time-consuming and risky to train someone else. The other thing is that Jesse has become mature, dependable, and highly competent/efficient. Jesse even has good original ideas (like the magnet). So, I don't see that Walt would want to kill Jesse for any reason. Yeah, Jesse cooked for the cartel, but he basically had no choice in that. If Walt wanted to kill Jesse for that he could have killed him in the mega-lab (he shot two other dudes in there) and burnt him to a crisp. Instead he went in there and rescued Jesse when Jesse was handcuffed to the machinery (if I'm remembering correctly).

Anyway, we're playing right into their hands....

I hear interpretations of the show … that are marvelous. Just way better than anything I could come up with. And I'm not being falsely modest, but I am in the middle of the forest and I can't see it for the trees. I hear stuff all the time where people honestly come up with better interpretations of this show than I ever could. And on the one hand, I have to admit, if you held my feet to the fire, half of them I didn't intend. But I like them better than anything I came up with, so maybe, in some "Inception"-like way, on some level beneath levels, maybe we had some of these ideas in mind from the get-go. Or maybe that's just patting ourselves on the back in a way that is not earned, I'm not sure which.

We do strive very hard to not answer every question in every episode, so that people can indeed argue over certain moments. We try to come up with as many watercooler moments as we can per episode, and I don't mean just big dramatic moments, but moments in which people can honestly argue about [what a character does]. I love giving the audience stuff that they can argue over in a fun way and not in an angry way. I love fomenting arguments.

-Vince Gilligan

[creep]

The theory makes sense aside from the fact that Walt needs Jesse if he doesn't want to do all that difficult moving and cooking work alone. It would be time-consuming and risky to train someone else. The other thing is that Jesse has become mature, dependable, and highly competent/efficient. Jesse even has good original ideas (like the magnet). So, I don't see that Walt would want to kill Jesse for any reason. Yeah, Jesse cooked for the cartel, but he basically had no choice in that. If Walt wanted to kill Jesse for that he could have killed him in the mega-lab (he shot two other dudes in there) and burnt him to a crisp. Instead he went in there and rescued Jesse when Jesse was handcuffed to the machinery (if I'm remembering correctly).

jesse is the more mature level headed one at this point and walt is starting to spiral out of control. at some point jesse and mike will have a discussion about killing walt. that is where i think it's headed.

by the way i would be pissed at mike too if i was walt over the money split.

[Juana]

Yeah it seems like Mike is trying to take over for Gus to an extent by controlling the money. Walt seems ONLY motivated by the money and power now and not so much about taking care of his family. Jesse seems to be like everyone else is saying the rational one.

[Jasper]

Well, about the money, it seems like Mike has the right idea, because all of those guys know about Mike, and some of those guys must know at least something about Walt and Jesse, especially if some of them know about Madrigal. So, if the money is gone, then there's no reason those guys won't start talking. I took Walt's issue with the money as having to do with his ego and general bad decision-making. Walt thinks he's in control and untouchable, and that is a complete delusion. He could be brought down so easily.

[farrellgirl99]

Usually, I dislike Skylar but I thought she was great in this last episode. And I loved how Walt turned her breakdown around on her to Marie and then ate an apple instead of seeing how she was. Awesome.