US, poverty, tent cities and kids.

[Larry B.]

Terrible.

[creep]

"the numbers living in extreme poverty have exploded under president obama"

bullshit

every country has poor people. they were interviewing these kids at school. how many poor families in other countries have their kids attending school.

and where are these tents you speak of?

[Larry B.]

"the numbers living in extreme poverty have exploded under president obama"

bullshit

every country has poor people. they were interviewing these kids at school. how many poor families in other countries have their kids attending school.

and where are these tents you speak of?

I saw the first few seconds of the version in Spanish and I looked for the English version, which didn't include the 'tent city'.



Michigan, they say. http://www.annarbor.com/news/sense-of-c ... ter-chill/

http://www.habermonitor.com/en/haber/de ... st/111046/

[creep]

sure there are homeless living in tents everywhere. i see them all the time. not many kids at all though.

homelessness is a problem here but it's a problem everywhere. that video makes it sound like all of a sudden everyone in america is living on the streets.

[Larry B.]

The point of the video (in Spanish anyway) is to show how poor people live in the 'richest country in the world.'

[Hokahey]

"the numbers living in extreme poverty have exploded under president obama"

bullshit

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/us/ex ... finds.html

It's a statement definitely twisting the facts with a bit of hyperbole thrown in. The extreme poverty rate is indeed up, but over a ten year period, and it's still about a third less than it was even in 1990.

I haven't watched the video, and I'm no fan of Obama's economic approach, but facts are facts.

[Hokahey]

The point of the video (in Spanish anyway) is to show how poor people live in the 'richest country in the world.'

You guys didnt think there were poor people living in bad conditions here? Overall, it's still an extremely small portion of the population, and it's not as if there isn't a ton of charity they could be relying on. There are shelters, food pantries, etc. There's no reason someone mentally competent enough to ask for help to be hungry or without shelter in this country. Most of the homeless I meet in St. Louis are clearly not all there and probably need to be hospitalized. "Regular" people have no reason to be hungry if they dont want to be.

[Larry B.]

You guys didnt think there were poor people living in bad conditions here? Overall, it's still an extremely small portion of the population, and it's not as if there isn't a ton of charity they could be relying on. There are shelters, food pantries, etc. There's no reason someone mentally competent enough to ask for help to be hungry or without shelter in this country. Most of the homeless I meet in St. Louis are clearly not all there and probably need to be hospitalized. "Regular" people have no reason to be hungry if they dont want to be.

49 million poor people doesn't seem like a small portion of the population. And if some people are resorting to eating rats, I'm gonna guess there's a ton of charity they can rely on.

And your claim about 'regular people' doesn't seem to make much sense (what is a 'regular people?')

And, of course, a credit line doesn't count as 'something to rely on'.

I just think that stuff like what's described in that video and the fact that that people don't seem to actually have a choice (i.e., to just go some place and received enough food, shelter, education and health, free of charge) doesn't belong in a so-called developed, first world country.

[creep]

You guys didnt think there were poor people living in bad conditions here? Overall, it's still an extremely small portion of the population, and it's not as if there isn't a ton of charity they could be relying on. There are shelters, food pantries, etc. There's no reason someone mentally competent enough to ask for help to be hungry or without shelter in this country. Most of the homeless I meet in St. Louis are clearly not all there and probably need to be hospitalized. "Regular" people have no reason to be hungry if they dont want to be.

49 million poor people doesn't seem like a small portion of the population. And if some people are resorting to eating rats, I'm gonna guess there's a ton of charity they can rely on.

And your claim about 'regular people' doesn't seem to make much sense (what is a 'regular people?')

And, of course, a credit line doesn't count as 'something to rely on'.

I just think that stuff like what's described in that video and the fact that that people don't seem to actually have a choice (i.e., to just go some place and received enough food, shelter, education and health, free of charge) doesn't belong in a so-called developed, first world country.

if someone makes an effort there is food available. i seriously doubt that the girl ate rats. if she did her mother is mentally ill. if you haven't noticed we aren't that rich a country anymore. i've been paying in to a retirement system for almost 30 yrs and chances are i won't see much if any of that money. financially we are not very healthy. one of the kids complained that she sometimes doesn't eat but then said her mother is pregnant. do you not see a problem with that?

i wonder if you did a poll of the 49 million people how many had cable and a cell phone. many in our country are just spoiled and irresponsible. throw food and money at them and they will just be the same way.

[Hokahey]

49 million poor people doesn't seem like a small portion of the population.

15%? It really is. And that's "poverty". Not "Extreme Poverty." I know plenty of people living in "poverty" and every last one of them is a pot head or shitty decision maker and has a flat screen TV and cell phone.

Granted there are people that could use help and are doing their best, but that percentage is much lower.

And if some people are resorting to eating rats, I'm gonna guess there's a ton of charity they can rely on.

No one is eating rats. If they are, as Creep said, they or their parent is mentally ill. It's absolute nonsense.

And your claim about 'regular people' doesn't seem to make much sense (what is a 'regular people?')

Not mentally ill.

And, of course, a credit line doesn't count as 'something to rely on'.

I have no idea what you're talking about. In every populated area in America there are food pantries and shelters. Who said anything about a credit line?

the fact that that people don't seem to actually have a choice (i.e., to just go some place and received enough food, shelter

That's not a fact. That's made up bullshit. There is free food and free shelter EVERYWHERE.

education and health, free of charge) doesn't belong in a so-called developed, first world country.

Free education and free healthcare don't exist anywhere in the world. Somebody pays for it. So let's quit using the word "free" and call it what it is, tax payer funded.

Second of all, all children are REQUIRED to attend our tax payer funded school system and are fed a square meal if they cant afford it.

If someone needs immediate medical attention it is the law that they be treated by a capable doctor if they arrive at a hospital with or without insurance.

Should higher education be tax payer funded? No. Of course I dont believe any education should be except where local municipalities decide to offer it if voted and approved by tax payers. There should be no Federal department of education.

And general health matters should not be tax payer funded. It is not difficult to get a job somewhere that offers health insurance. I've had since I was 18 and got my first full time job.


Your facts are wrong, and your understanding of how our country works is wrong.

You have to be mentally ill, completely irresponsible, or unwilling to pull your weight to find yourself in a situation where you dont have food and shelter that YOU pay for yourself in this country.

You have to be mentally ill to not have food and shelter period.

[Hokahey]

i wonder if you did a poll of the 49 million people how many had cable and a cell phone. many in our country are just spoiled and irresponsible. throw food and money at them and they will just be the same way.

So true. And the older you get and more you experience the more you realize how true this is. I can't tell you how many people I know leeching off of tax payers through some type of assistance or disability program that are perfectly capable of getting off their asses and working for what they have. They all have cell phones, they usually have brand name clothing, etc.

It's funny when I see what qualifies as living in poverty and look back at what I was doing when I made such little money. I could have qualified for all kinds of government assistance back then but really had no idea because I thought I was living pretty well. I ate a lot of Ramen noodles, didnt have cable, and wore cheap clothes, but my stomach was full and I had a roof over my head. I was perfectly happy. I ultimately wanted nice things though, so I got off my ass and worked for what I have.

I would never suggest everyone is capable of "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps," but YES, a lot of "poor" people are. And those that aren't can call/walk to/get a ride to/send a telegram to the Salvation Army and get all the help they need without taking it from my paycheck.

[Larry B.]

49 million poor people doesn't seem like a small portion of the population.

15%? It really is. And that's "poverty". Not "Extreme Poverty." I know plenty of people living in "poverty" and every last one of them is a pot head or shitty decision maker and has a flat screen TV and cell phone.

Granted there are people that could use help and are doing their best, but that percentage is much lower.

And if some people are resorting to eating rats, I'm gonna guess there's a ton of charity they can rely on.

No one is eating rats. If they are, as Creep said, they or their parent is mentally ill. It's absolute nonsense.

And your claim about 'regular people' doesn't seem to make much sense (what is a 'regular people?')

Not mentally ill.

And, of course, a credit line doesn't count as 'something to rely on'.

I have no idea what you're talking about. In every populated area in America there are food pantries and shelters. Who said anything about a credit line?

the fact that that people don't seem to actually have a choice (i.e., to just go some place and received enough food, shelter

That's not a fact. That's made up bullshit. There is free food and free shelter EVERYWHERE.

education and health, free of charge) doesn't belong in a so-called developed, first world country.

Free education and free healthcare don't exist anywhere in the world. Somebody pays for it. So let's quit using the word "free" and call it what it is, tax payer funded.

Second of all, all children are REQUIRED to attend our tax payer funded school system and are fed a square meal if they cant afford it.

If someone needs immediate medical attention it is the law that they be treated by a capable doctor if they arrive at a hospital with or without insurance.

Should higher education be tax payer funded? No. Of course I dont believe any education should be except where local municipalities decide to offer it if voted and approved by tax payers. There should be no Federal department of education.

And general health matters should not be tax payer funded. It is not difficult to get a job somewhere that offers health insurance. I've had since I was 18 and got my first full time job.


Your facts are wrong, and your understanding of how our country works is wrong.

You have to be mentally ill, completely irresponsible, or unwilling to pull your weight to find yourself in a situation where you dont have food and shelter that YOU pay for yourself in this country.

You have to be mentally ill to not have food and shelter period.

'Free' as in 'you already paid for it, so you don't have to put cash on the table'.

And I do know that there are (or should be) shelters everywhere, but are there enough? I mean... if there is more than one 'tent city' (which sounds like a lot, but even if there were only 10 families in them), I'm guessing they don't work that well?

I'm not mentioning a lot of facts, because people living in the US should know much better than me how that country works. But if there is free food and free shelter and free (and prompt) medical care and free (and good) education, there there are lots of people there that don't know about it... which takes me back to the sentence that this type of this isn't proper of a a first world, fully developed country. So, either all those people leaving in extreme poverty (most likely a low percentage of those 49 millions) are mentally ill and thus nobody helps them (because they're going to die from rat-related illnesses) or the US isn't a first world country anymore

I mentioned credit lines because that's the way the US (and Chile too, btw) address some constitutional rights. You know, 'We will protect everyone's right to high quality college education!'. i.e., 'Our financial system will grant you credits so good that even if you're broke you can send your kid to study medicine. You might lose your house, but whatever.'

I know that part of people living under the line of poverty are stupid, reckless morons. Maybe even the majority. But c'mon... you have 49 million mindless fucks roaming around? 49 million? There HAS to be a group of... I don't know, 10k people who actually just can't make a living and their kids have 2 meals a day or that they might put their newborn into adoption ONLY because daddy was fired 6 months ago and everything went downhill and the family earns 280 bucks a month.

[creep]

so what is the point you are trying to make?

[Larry B.]

That your country is overrated, basically. And that as a society, it severely lacks moral values, as in that your country doesn't really seem to care if their citizens die of starvation, cold or untreated diseases.

[creep]

That your country is overrated, basically. And that as a society, it severely lacks moral values, as in that your country doesn't really seem to care if their citizens die of starvation, cold or untreated diseases.

overrated by who? this country is divided in half and all both sides do is bitch about the other side and how bad things are.

if you are going to hate our country (which has always been obvious here) hate us because of our silly wars not how we treat our own people. we actually live here and have a better idea what is going on. people do not die from starvation or cold and if they die from an untreated disease it's because they did not get help for themselves. sometimes people have to take some personal responsibility. help is out there but you have to make an effort. i'm willing to bet that more than half of the 49 million living in poverty are overweight.

[Larry B.]

i'm willing to bet that more than half of the 49 million living in poverty are overweight.

you have a good point there. it doesn't help the image of the US, though.

You and HoKa seem to keep avoiding a subject though: if you're fucked up and want help, there's no reliable, free of charge, prompt, official governmental help, is it?

It strikes me as unreal that if I earn 500 bucks a month and my kid smashed his face in the concrete and loses an eye and part of his skull, either I try to fix him with masking tape or I become indebted for life to pay for his surgeries.

[creep]

i'm willing to bet that more than half of the 49 million living in poverty are overweight.

you have a good point there. it doesn't help the image of the US, though.

You and HoKa seem to keep avoiding a subject though: if you're fucked up and want help, there's no reliable, free of charge, prompt, official governmental help, is it?

It strikes me as unreal that if I earn 500 bucks a month and my kid smashed his face in the concrete and loses an eye and part of his skull, either I try to fix him with masking tape or I become indebted for life to pay for his surgeries.

our healthcare system is fucked up and one of the things that makes our country bleed money. as said before medical is available to everyone. you can go to any hospital and get treated. if you are poor you can get medicade which is a govt funded medical care program for poor people. we also give medical coverage to retired people.

if you are poor and need food you get FREE food stamps.

no one is avoiding the point. help is out there.

[Hokahey]

Help is there. If people ignore it that's on them.

We're not going to kidnap the homeless and force them in to shelters they cant escape from Larry.

Jesus Christ.

As many issues as we have here we're still the best country in the world, overrated or not.

[Hype]

Help is there. If people ignore it that's on them.

We're not going to kidnap the homeless and force them in to shelters they cant escape from Larry.

Jesus Christ.

As many issues as we have here we're still the best country in the world, overrated or not.

The first sentence is partially true. In countries with far more progressive social welfare, there is a huge problem, given that these services exist and rely on usage to justify funding, if folk don't make use of them. The second sentence presupposes something about those who don't make use of social welfare (be it state-orchestrated or a not-for-profit NGO or whatever) that I think is just false. Namely, that if people aren't using it, that must mean they're choosing to ignore it, and they should be permitted to do so. In actual fact, there are myriad circumstances that actively prevent many folk from gaining help they really do need --- misunderstandings of the immediate requirements for admission to shelter housing is one major part of it, another is false beliefs about what will happen if they make use of such services, a third is severe mental illness and substance abuse that is pervasive among homeless populations, a fourth is misplaced, misguided false pride in "not needing no handouts" and such things. There are extended arguments for why all four of these ought to be fixed. The latter may be the worst of all, since it generally involves folk who appear to be otherwise fine, with the illusion of stubborn free choice that libertarians love to invoke as some magical justification for injustice.

In actual fact, police often DO enforce a tacit program of "kidnapping" and enforced "sheltering" of the homeless... by arresting them. It's a well established phenomenon that would be unnecessary if more effort to tackle underlying problems were made, and if we got over the idea that poverty (like homosexuality) is a "choice" that ought to be defended from the evil paternalistic state.

As for the last sentence, it's too ambiguous to possibly be completely true. There are many ways in which the USA may be said to be "the best country" -- gross GDP, military spending, and volume of production of mass media, are really the only unquestionable ones. In most other measurable ways I can think of, the United States is not at all clearly "the best". Homer Simpson once put it best, when referring to healthcare: "America's health care system is second only to Japan, Canada, Sweden, Great Britain, well...all of Europe. But you can thank your lucky stars we don't live in Paraguay!" And that's true of many other things besides. To declare the United States unquestionably "The best country in the world" without stipulating a sense of "best (at something specific)", you're doing nothing except engaging in useless patriotism.

Creep's just wrong when he says: "people do not die from starvation or cold". Yes they do. Look up statistics for any major US city that has cold winters and the emergency shelter system in place for extreme cold weather warnings. People DO die of this every year, and it's not just "on them". To be fair, it happens everywhere, even where there is extremely progressive social welfare.

[creep]

Creep's just wrong when he says: "people do not die from starvation or cold". Yes they do. Look up statistics for any major US city that has cold winters and the emergency shelter system in place for extreme cold weather warnings. People DO die of this every year, and it's not just "on them". To be fair, it happens everywhere, even where there is extremely progressive social welfare.

obviously i wasn't saying that it never happens. i was just saying that larry seems to think it's like a poor african country here where we have people dying from starvation because the government isn't helping. people die from anorexia and malnourishment every day here. old people die when it gets really cold. i though it was obvious that i was making the point that i'm not dodging dead bodies on the road driving to work every day. it's not the huge problem he seems to think it is.

[Hype]

Creep's just wrong when he says: "people do not die from starvation or cold". Yes they do. Look up statistics for any major US city that has cold winters and the emergency shelter system in place for extreme cold weather warnings. People DO die of this every year, and it's not just "on them". To be fair, it happens everywhere, even where there is extremely progressive social welfare.

obviously i wasn't saying that it never happens. i was just saying that larry seems to think it's like a poor african country here where we have people dying from starvation because the government isn't helping. people die from anorexia and malnourishment every day here. old people die when it gets really cold. i though it was obvious that i was making the point that i'm not dodging dead bodies on the road driving to work every day. it's not the huge problem he seems to think it is.

I figured. Yeah, Larry's view is skewed, but I thought the objections from you guys were a bit hyperbolic in the other direction. The truth, as it often does, lies somewhere in the middle.

[creep]

Creep's just wrong when he says: "people do not die from starvation or cold". Yes they do. Look up statistics for any major US city that has cold winters and the emergency shelter system in place for extreme cold weather warnings. People DO die of this every year, and it's not just "on them". To be fair, it happens everywhere, even where there is extremely progressive social welfare.

obviously i wasn't saying that it never happens. i was just saying that larry seems to think it's like a poor african country here where we have people dying from starvation because the government isn't helping. people die from anorexia and malnourishment every day here. old people die when it gets really cold. i though it was obvious that i was making the point that i'm not dodging dead bodies on the road driving to work every day. it's not the huge problem he seems to think it is.

I figured. Yeah, Larry's view is skewed, but I thought the objections from you guys were a bit hyperbolic in the other direction. The truth, as it often does, lies somewhere in the middle.

when it comes to larry not so much in the middle.

[Hype]

This kind of info is really interesting: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 192909.htm

Remaining life expectancy at age 25 among homeless and marginally housed men was 42 years -- 10 years lower than the general population and six years lower than the poorest income group.

For homeless and marginally housed women, remaining life expectancy at age 25 was 52 years -- seven years lower than the general population, and five years lower than the poorest income group.

A large part of this premature mortality is potentially avoidable, say the authors. Many excess deaths were attributable to alcohol and smoking-related diseases and to violence and injuries, much of which might have been related to substance abuse.

There were also many excess deaths related to mental disorders and suicides.

This study shows that homeless and marginally housed people living in shelters, rooming houses, and hotels have much higher mortality and shorter life expectancy than could be expected on the basis of low income alone, they conclude. These findings emphasise the importance of considering housing situation as a marker of socioeconomic disadvantage.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 183502.htm

An intervention that provides housing for homeless persons with severe alcohol problems without requiring abstinence from drinking was associated with reduced health care use and costs and a decrease in the use of alcohol, according to a new study.

...
"Findings suggest that permanent, rather than temporary, housing may be necessary to fully realize these cost savings, because benefits continued to accrue the longer these individuals were housed. Findings support strategies to retain these individuals in housing, including offering on-site medical and mental health services, supportive case managers, and minimal rules and regulations pertaining to their housing."

Point being that these issues are not simple. Larry's reactions may be overblown, but the current trend in American Repubicanism seems to be completely "head in the sand" about real data. (Obama's centrism leaves him too close to Republicans for my comfort, too...)

[Larry B.]

What have you guys been reading? I never said nor implied that in the US 20k people die daily from starvation or anything. I was just pointing out that clearly there are a lot of people who seem to be out of options, which (in my view) is not in line with how a developed country should treat its worse-off citizens.

[clickie]

i'ts the luck of the draw larry. with your work ethic, if you were born in the USA, by the time you were 25 you'd have two cars and a house sittin' on at least a quarter acre of land like we all do.