Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

Discussion relating to current events, politics, religion, etc
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
chaos
Posts: 5024
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:23 pm
Location: Boston

Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#1 Post by chaos » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:28 pm

No surprise there.

I have to say (since MB and I are kindred spirits and all :lol: ) that she was right to call out Perry during the last debate regarding his HPV mandate (even though it did not pass).

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/09 ... um=twitter
The high noon deadline for bioethicist Arthur Caplan's $10,000 challenge to Rep. Michele Bachmann has come and gone without a peep from the Republican presidential hopeful. But damage from her statement linking the HPV vaccine with mental retardation has already been done, Caplan says.

As Shots reported last week, bioethicist Steven Miles first ponied up $1,000 to call Bachmann's bluff. Caplan, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, then raised the ante with $10,000 out of his own pocket. He asked Bachmann to produce a real person who has suffered mental retardation by the HPV vaccine.

If she could do it, Caplan offered to donate the ten grand to Bachmann's charity of choice. If she failed, he suggested that Bachmann donate the same amount to a charity of his choice. No one from the Bachmann camp ever contacted Caplan accepting the challenge, according to the bioethicist.

"Time is up," he said in a press conference today.


Over the past week, Caplan, who studies vaccine ethics, chastised Bachmann for her rumor- and fear-mongering of a vaccine that's used to prevent cervical cancer. Despite medical professionals refuting Bachmann's claim, Caplan wrote in a blog that he was still "worried that the stench of fear was going to linger around vaccines yet again."

Miles concurred in an interview with NPR's Michele Norris. "What happened here was yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater," Miles said. "The claim is very important because women will make important health decisions based on the idea that mental retardation may be a side effect of this, which there's no evidence, so far, that it is."

Why have concerns about the vaccine grown so disproportionate to the small safety hazards it actually presents? Because politicians occasionally use anecdotes and stories instead of facts, Caplan says.

"Politicians shouldn't get away with hearsay," he said. "We need to hold candidates responsible for their sources."

Caplan tells Shots that he's received a lot of e-mails supporting his challenge — some people even offering money of their own — and a few trying to disprove him. But no one has succeeded yet.

And as one of millions watching the Republican Primary debate tonight, he'll be listening hard for more talk of vaccines.

MYXYLPLYX
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#2 Post by MYXYLPLYX » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:39 pm

chaos wrote:
I have to say (since MB and I are kindred spirits and all :lol: ) that she was right to call out Perry during the last debate regarding his HPV mandate (even though it did not pass).
I'm curious as to what exactly you agree with Bachmann? :hs:

The last I read she says that she was merely repeating what was said to her by some random woman and the quote in context mostly bears this out... however any moron should know better than to repeat something so incendiary and easily refuted.

:confused: :crazy:

User avatar
chaos
Posts: 5024
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:23 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#3 Post by chaos » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:43 pm

MYXYLPLYX wrote:
chaos wrote:
I have to say (since MB and I are kindred spirits and all :lol: ) that she was right to call out Perry during the last debate regarding his HPV mandate (even though it did not pass).
I'm curious as to what exactly you agree with Bachmann? :hs:

The last I read she says that she was merely repeating what was said to her by some random woman and the quote in context mostly bears this out... however any moron should know better than to repeat something so incendiary and easily refuted.

:confused: :crazy:
Perry tried to mandate that all girls in Texas (I think 12 year olds) get the vaccine. Although I think the vaccine is a good idea, I think his mandate is too intrusive and he crossed the line.

MYXYLPLYX
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#4 Post by MYXYLPLYX » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:54 pm

chaos wrote: Perry tried to mandate that all girls in Texas (I think 12 year olds) get the vaccine. Although I think the vaccine is a good idea, I think his mandate is too intrusive and he crossed the line.
All manner of vaccines are required to enroll a child in school? :noclue:

Is it because it's a vaccine for a STD? I understand that makes people squeamish, but the real point in administering the vaccine is because of the correlation between HPV and several forms of cancer. The potential exists to greatly reduce the instances of these cancers and I'm not sure that squeamishness should really rule the day here?

:conf:

User avatar
chaos
Posts: 5024
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:23 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#5 Post by chaos » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:01 pm

MYXYLPLYX wrote:
Is it because it's a vaccine for a STD?

:conf:
No, not at all. As I said I think the vaccine is a good idea. However, if a parent does not want to have his/her child injected with yet another vaccine that should be his/her choice.

It is a slippery slope with these types of mandates.

User avatar
Artemis
Posts: 10357
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#6 Post by Artemis » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:16 pm

I think I read that some of those conservative religious groups thought the vaccine would lead to more teen sex. :lol:
That's probably the main reason that mandatory vaccination didn't pass.

User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 2322
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:28 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#7 Post by Jasper » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:46 pm

I don't have a problem with the attempted mandate. It protects kids without taking away any freedoms. Parents who don't want to protect their kids, and other innocent kids who may encounter them, just seem like shitty parents.

When it comes to something like a flu vaccine, I am all for kids not being allowed in public school unless they've had it. Ignorance of science is no excuse to put entire communities as risk.

You have a community trying to control or stamp out a problem. Why should the parents be allowed to send their kids into that community, when their kids could potentially be increasing the risk for everyone else? The slippery slope fallacy is called a fallacy because it's used casually, without any supporting evidence. It skips over all of the steps that lead to this imagined horrible outcome. What is the horrible outcome, and how do we get there from HPV shots? Do we next go to mind-control shots? The idea is to limit or eradicate HPV-related cervical cancer. It's a good thing that requires group participation. It's proven medicine. The burden of proof is on anyone who wants to explain how this leads to something negative.

User avatar
Pandemonium
Posts: 5720
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:18 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#8 Post by Pandemonium » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:49 pm

Jasper wrote:I don't have a problem with the attempted mandate. It protects kids without taking away any freedoms. Parents who don't want to protect their kids, and other innocent kids who may encounter them, just seem like shitty parents.

When it comes to something like a flu vaccine, I am all for kids not being allowed in public school unless they've had it. Ignorance of science is no excuse to put entire communities as risk. (snip)
Those are some bold words.

I'm sure I'm opening myself up for all sorts of criticism, but there's a lot more to many people's "issues" with (certain) vaccines than simple ignorance. A big objection to certain vaccines is the use of the preservative Thimerosal which is mercury-based and has long since been banned in many other first-world countries. There is plenty of fact-based evidence especially in infants who haven't ye fully developed the blood/brain barrier that the massive "all-in-one" innoculations done around the 18 - 24 month mark can under certain "perfect storm" circumstances cause brain damage leading to developmental disabilities such as autism. A parent can now ask for these innoculations to be staggered and to have preservative-free vaccines for their kids because of research on these issues done over the last 15 years.

creep
Site Admin
Posts: 10348
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:51 am

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#9 Post by creep » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:17 pm

A few years ago when I had to go to the middle east for work they tried to make me take the anthrax vaccine. There was no way I was going to take that.

User avatar
chaos
Posts: 5024
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:23 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#10 Post by chaos » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:21 pm

Jasper wrote:
You have a community trying to control or stamp out a problem. Why should the parents be allowed to send their kids into that community, when their kids could potentially be increasing the risk for everyone else? The slippery slope fallacy is called a fallacy because it's used casually, without any supporting evidence. It skips over all of the steps that lead to this imagined horrible outcome. What is the horrible outcome, and how do we get there from HPV shots? Do we next go to mind-control shots? The idea is to limit or eradicate HPV-related cervical cancer. It's a good thing that requires group participation. It's proven medicine. The burden of proof is on anyone who wants to explain how this leads to something negative.
I will reiterate that I think that the vaccine is a good idea. However, I do not think a vaccine for cervical cancer is comparable to vaccines for both polio and rubella with regard to requiring that children receive the vaccination before attending school.

With regard to the possible harm, the HPV vaccines are fairly new and the risks are not fully known.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/healt ... ccine.html
“Because Merck was so aggressive, it went too fast,” Dr. Harper said. “I would have liked to see it go much slower.”

In receiving expedited consideration from the Food and Drug Administration, Gardasil took six months from application to approval and was recommended by the C.D.C. weeks later for universal use among girls. Most vaccines take three years to get that sort of endorsement, Dr. Harper said, and then 5 to 10 more for universal acceptance.

“In that time, you learn a lot about safety and side effects and how to use it,” Dr. Harper said. “Those getting it early should be the ones who really want it and willing to accept the risk.”
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NE ... Discussion
The impact of HPV vaccination on the rate of cervical cancer will not be observable for decades; thus, decisions regarding a vaccination policy will inevitably rely on studies reporting intermediate outcomes. Estimating the magnitude of the benefit of vaccination is further complicated when one considers the extensive secondary-prevention program in the United States. This program, which involves the use of cytology-based screening, is recommended annually or biennially, starting 3 years after the first sexual intercourse and no later than 21 years of age.13-15 HPV DNA testing is recommended as a triage test for equivocal results of cytologic analysis and in combination with cytologic tests for primary screening in women 30 years of age or older.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5620282&page=1
"The overall effect of the vaccines on cervical cancer remains unknown," Dr. Carolyn J. Haug, the Journal of Norwegian Medical Association's editor, wrote in the New England Journal editorial. "The real impact of HPV vaccination on cervical cancer will not be observable for decades."
There is also the issue of side effects. FDA records reveal that, since Gardasil's approval, nearly 9,000 girls had "bad health events" after receiving their shots. These included 78 reported outbreaks of genital warts, 18 deaths and six cases of Guillain Barre Syndrome, which can result in paralysis. It is unknown whether there are unseen side effects, like decreasing the body's ability to fight off other strains of the HPV virus

User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 2322
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:28 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#11 Post by Jasper » Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:03 am

Pandemonium wrote:
Jasper wrote:I don't have a problem with the attempted mandate. It protects kids without taking away any freedoms. Parents who don't want to protect their kids, and other innocent kids who may encounter them, just seem like shitty parents.

When it comes to something like a flu vaccine, I am all for kids not being allowed in public school unless they've had it. Ignorance of science is no excuse to put entire communities as risk. (snip)
Those are some bold words.

I'm sure I'm opening myself up for all sorts of criticism, but there's a lot more to many people's "issues" with (certain) vaccines than simple ignorance. A big objection to certain vaccines is the use of the preservative Thimerosal which is mercury-based and has long since been banned in many other first-world countries. There is plenty of fact-based evidence especially in infants who haven't ye fully developed the blood/brain barrier that the massive "all-in-one" innoculations done around the 18 - 24 month mark can under certain "perfect storm" circumstances cause brain damage leading to developmental disabilities such as autism. A parent can now ask for these innoculations to be staggered and to have preservative-free vaccines for their kids because of research on these issues done over the last 15 years.
I'm all for eliminating mercury from as many things as possible, but you've just spewed a lot of the kind of fringe hysteria that Bachman promotes.

User avatar
Pandemonium
Posts: 5720
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:18 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#12 Post by Pandemonium » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:52 am

Jasper wrote:I'm all for eliminating mercury from as many things as possible, but you've just spewed a lot of the kind of fringe hysteria that Bachman promotes.
By no means am I a Bachman supporter and really haven't followed her lunatic run for the White House. I suspect she's taking a far more extreme view than I am on this subject. And the fact that she may be right to any degree on this subject or others despite her otherwise insane political stance means nothing - look at the thread in this forum regarding that speech Sarah Palin gave a while back for a good example.

There there *is* solid evidence of what I said. To blindly parrot what big drug companies out to make money and our imminently trustworthy government regarding vaccines that they push on the public is just as stupid as you claim some parents are.

User avatar
crater
Posts: 1298
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#13 Post by crater » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:39 pm

Pandemonium wrote:There is plenty of fact-based evidence ... leading to developmental disabilities such as autism
1.) No there isn't "plenty of fact-based evidence" Mr. Jenny McCarthy

2.) You're making claims about what triggers autism, when in fact no one knows what physically causes autism. But we do know vaccines do not cause them.
Pandemonium wrote: There there *is* solid evidence of what I said. To blindly parrot ...
Again, no there isn't and you seem to be the one that is blindly believing already debunked info

Just like the Truthers and the Birthers, you anti-science/anti-vaccination people are :crazy:

User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 2322
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:28 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#14 Post by Jasper » Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:39 pm

This outrageous rejection of science and reason is something I'd never have expected from Pandemonium. It makes me ill.

I don't even know what to say. Travel back to the golden age before vaccines. Have a fucking blast.

People who believe this batshit insane pop culture drivel put everyone else at risk. Fucking hell. Un-fucking-believable.

Hokahey
Site Admin
Posts: 5423
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:51 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#15 Post by Hokahey » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:51 am

chaos wrote: I will reiterate that I think that the vaccine is a good idea. However, I do not think a vaccine for cervical cancer is comparable to vaccines for both polio and rubella with regard to requiring that children receive the vaccination before attending school.
Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

User avatar
Pandemonium
Posts: 5720
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:18 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#16 Post by Pandemonium » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:44 pm

Jasper wrote:This outrageous rejection of science and reason is something I'd never have expected from Pandemonium. It makes me ill.

I don't even know what to say. Travel back to the golden age before vaccines. Have a fucking blast.

People who believe this batshit insane pop culture drivel put everyone else at risk. Fucking hell. Un-fucking-believable.
"WAAHHHHH, WHHHAAAHHHHH, WHHHAAHHHH!!!!!!!! Pandemonium's done gone ka-wazy believin' all that truther shit and wantin' ta lives back in de dark ages."

Gimme a fucking break, Cap'n Hysterical.

User avatar
Hype
Posts: 7028
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#17 Post by Hype » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:54 pm

This is the worst thread in the history of this section of the board. Jasper is right. It's not a right to opt-out of public health.

User avatar
Pandemonium
Posts: 5720
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:18 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#18 Post by Pandemonium » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:03 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:This is the worst thread in the history of this section of the board. Jasper is right. It's not a right to opt-out of public health.
LOL, you waited 3 years to add something to this thread?

User avatar
kv
Posts: 8770
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: South Bay, SoCal

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#19 Post by kv » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:54 pm

ya there is a reason necro posting is generally looked down upon...you are just stirring up dried shit

tvrec
Posts: 771
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:59 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#20 Post by tvrec » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:39 pm

There was an NPR report this morning on NPR:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/09 ... re-medical

The women makes a fine point in arguing the social aspects cloaking the vaccine debate.

It is weird to dredge up the post, but the topic remains sadly, strangely topical.

User avatar
Hype
Posts: 7028
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#21 Post by Hype » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:59 am

There were threads I had never read. This was one of them. I woke it from the dead because it died too soon, and I was curious whether people still have the same views.

It irritates me that people still cough into their hands... not vaccinating is kinda like that, but specifically for diseases that can kill.

User avatar
Essence_Smith
Posts: 2224
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#22 Post by Essence_Smith » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:29 am

I'm good with the "traditional" vaccines for things that travel in the air and have killed millions...your small pox and all the good stuff they've been injecting people with for decades upon decades...I am weary of "new" ones like something for HPV...and I don't get the flu shot because the two times I had it, I got sick the very next day. My doctor says there are rare people like myself who have that reaction, so I generally say no thank you to that one...my kid gets it semi-regularly but I'm not a fan...haven't had the flu in prolly a decade with the exception of the times I actually got a flu shot so ummm, yeah, no thanks...

User avatar
Hype
Posts: 7028
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Re: Bachmann does not respond to vaccine challenge

#23 Post by Hype » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:17 pm

ES, that view's not all that different from those expressed by others in this thread that Jasper was right to call out. While I admit I haven't gotten the flu shot regularly either, I probably will from now on for a number of reasons. For one, it's easy to forget or ignore how many people you know who are on immunosuppressant medications. While seasonal flu might not be a big deal for you, it could kill your parents because of their arthritis meds (methotrexate is serious), or your kids. (And, actually, some flu may actually be worse for those with strong immune systems, and we're just lucky we haven't seen that in large numbers since the Spanish flu, as far as I know).

Likewise, they're now suggesting that both boys and girls should be given the HPV vaccine because rates of a number of cancers (and infections) have dropped dramatically, but we could literally ERADICATE lethal forms of cancer if we gave the vaccine to everyone.

Relatedly, I wish I had been able to get the chicken pox vaccine. Kids these days are not going to know the horror of complications from shingles that can crop up in anyone who has been infected with chicken pox as a child.

Someone in this thread brought up something to do with thiomersal (ethyl mercury)... but this is conspiracy theory nonsense generated by fear and ignorance. People hear the word 'mercury' and freak out because they've heard in news reports for so long that "mercury" is bad. But this ignores the fact that compounds differ in their effects on the human body. Table salt is a compound of chlorine and sodium. Chlorine gas can kill you, but you need salt to live (your brain uses sodium ions to send signals). It's simply ignorant, and harmful, to perpetuate the myth that vaccines "might be harmful" without any evidence. People are going to die because of it. See: http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/commi ... ul2006/en/

It seems to me that part of the problem is that people are thinking about what's in their immediate best interest, without (being able to?) recognize that each person's long-term best interests are served by sharing in what is in all of our interests as a group. Vaccines by their nature aren't the sort of thing that ought to be opted into or out of. They cannot effectively eradicate serious diseases unless certain thresholds of adoption are met. It's not about whether you are likely to get sick, or be seriously affected yourself, but about whether you could be a carrier who could harm others.

Post Reply