Assisted dying

Discussion relating to current events, politics, religion, etc

Assisted dying

Postby Bandit72 » Wed May 27, 2015 12:33 am

I know this had been brought up before (as I'm sure I posted the Terry Pratchett (RIP) 'Choosing to die' documentary awhile back), but the latest story in the UK has reignited a debate for it to be legalised in this country. I think two people a week go to Switzerland to end their life.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... s-decision

My point is, why are we having to let MP's decide for or against as to why we should pass such a bill? Yes, I understand that it's protocol that the government have a responsibility in making decisions for the country because they were elected and that's how government works. :jasper:

I wonder if it's time on such matters, where it is actually a life or death situation, that the public go and vote? Instead of a load of overpaid, corrupt lying twats deciding whether or not we can or we can't live. I know in Belgium it's only Belgium nationals I think, what's the deal in Canada?

So, hypocritically, suicide still remains illegal in this country. How on earth you can get charged when you're dead is still a bit of a mystery to me. And yes I've heard all the arguements and the 'what ifs', but we live in a world now that medically, it's pretty much nailed on that if they tell you you're fucked, you're fucked. Sick of these pro life Christian idots coming on the news and banging on about embracing life. Fuck off.

(awaits Hype to disect what I've written with a fine tooth comb and abuse me :wink: )


If you've not watched this, please do.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xnu340 ... shortfilms
User avatar
Bandit72
 
Posts: 2480
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:04 am
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Assisted dying

Postby mockbee » Wed May 27, 2015 6:57 am

I found this article very human and intriguing. Of course, everyone should have the right to decide their own fate. I get a little queasy when someone actually acts on it (even in terminal illness cases), but I understand why. It would be so hard for everyone involved. I can't imagine a close family member leaving this way, but also don't want to imagine a protracted illness...




Image
The Last Day of Her Life

When Sandy Bem found out she had Alzheimer’s, she resolved that before the disease stole her mind, she would kill herself. The question was, when?

By ROBIN MARANTZ HENIGMAY 14, 2015


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/magazine/the-last-day-of-her-life.html?_r=0
User avatar
mockbee
 
Posts: 2210
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:05 am

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Bandit72 » Wed May 27, 2015 7:09 am

My father-in-law took his own life four weeks ago. One of the reasons was early onset Alzheimer’s.
User avatar
Bandit72
 
Posts: 2480
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:04 am
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Romeo » Wed May 27, 2015 8:10 am

my friend had a friend (someone she grew up with and considered like a sister to her) who was dying from salivary cancer. She had numerous operations, part of her jaw removed (which left a constant open hole which she needed to keep bandaged), had a feeding tube and numerous rounds of chemo.

She wanted to die with dignity. She attempted to take her own life by swallowing a bunch of pain killers but her boyfriend called 911. She did eventually go into hospice and passed away. Because of knowing everything she went through I do believe in assisted suicide.
User avatar
Romeo
 
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: St. andrews

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Hype » Wed May 27, 2015 6:02 pm

The fact is that many suffering people already do find ways to die rather than continue living with severe declines, or severely diminished quality of life. In a lot of these cases, physician assistance would be a benefit not just for people who wish to end their lives, but also for families who may wish not to be burdened with decision-making for a patient on artificial life-support, or otherwise. It's also a fact that in jurisdictions where physician-assisted dying isn't legal, nurses, doctors, and family members are known to have developed ways of dealing with these sorts of cases to circumvent the legal system. We don't know exactly how many, because records aren't kept, and we don't know how many cases are dealt with satisfactorily, for the same reason. One reason to allow assisted dying would simply be to be able to know more about something that is already going on that can have profound legal consequences (think: inheritance, childcare, etc.)

The wife of a philosopher whom I respect highly recently committed suicide in order to avoid the worst consequences of dementia. She created a website here: http://www.deadatnoon.com/

It is very worth checking out. Here is an article with a video featuring some of her family, including one of my heroes, Jonathan Francis Bennett: http://globalnews.ca/news/1789319/timel ... in-canada/

This might also be worth checking out: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shot ... ily-grieve

I don't think "death [or dying] with dignity" is the best reason in favour of legalizing physician-assisted death, partly because "dignity" is a very personal, tricky concept, but deaths typically affect the living much more than the dead (the dying are directly affected by dying, but not by death). It's also not the strongest reason for choosing to die. The avoidance of severe, terminal, futile, prolonged pain, suffering, and/or loss of capacities to live and act as one wishes to live and act (whether in pain or healthy or not) seem to me to be far stronger reasons to choose to die, as do considered judgments about the effect of a prolonged suffering decline or hospitalized/institutionalized death on both the person and the person's family.
User avatar
Hype
 
Posts: 6167
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Re: Assisted dying

Postby nausearockpig » Wed May 27, 2015 10:10 pm

The ending of your own life should be no one else's fucking business - we should each be allowed to live and die the way we want (as long as our actions do not harm others)....
User avatar
nausearockpig
 
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:03 pm

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Hype » Thu May 28, 2015 5:28 am

nausearockpig wrote:The ending of your own life should be no one else's fucking business - we should each be allowed to live and die the way we want (as long as our actions do not harm others)....


This isn't about suicide. It's about physician (or other) assistance in dying. There probably should be legislation precisely because we need to make sure, for example, that the person who dies consented. 'Consent' is a legal term. You must be competent (i.e., not brain-damaged, not a vegetable). This is why living wills are so important. End of life so often involves precisely those conditions under which consent is either exceedingly difficult or impossible to give. Furthermore, assisted dying involves an assistant, so it isn't "no one else's fucking business". It's very clearly at least one other person's business. Not to mention the tools (drugs, etc) mean that companies are involved, and could be open to lawsuits.

Your thinking is fine for the reclusive guy in the woods who has no family and decides to end it all with a shotgun. It's not helpful at all for the vast majority of people whose deaths involve hospitals, physicians, nurses, care-givers, family...
User avatar
Hype
 
Posts: 6167
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Bandit72 » Thu May 28, 2015 5:28 am

Adurentibus Spina wrote:I don't think "death [or dying] with dignity" is the best reason in favour of legalizing physician-assisted death, partly because "dignity" is a very personal, tricky concept, but deaths typically affect the living much more than the dead (the dying are directly affected by dying, but not by death). It's also not the strongest reason for choosing to die. The avoidance of severe, terminal, futile, prolonged pain, suffering, and/or loss of capacities to live and act as one wishes to live and act (whether in pain or healthy or not) seem to me to be far stronger reasons to choose to die, as do considered judgments about the effect of a prolonged suffering decline or hospitalized/institutionalized death on both the person and the person's family.


Yeh, I doubt if they would ever pass a bill where someone asks just to die with dignity. I think the bill to be discussed over here is for people with 6 months or less to live. Which is kind of a small step forward but doesn't resolve a lot of cases. If I wasn't terminally ill and had reached the stage where I lost all present day physical or mental functions then I see no reason (and nor would my family) to be using tax payers money to fund me shuffling around some controlled institute for x number of years. I'm not saying that it's just because I would be an added expense to the system, I'm saying I wouldn't be me. I guess the body you become in life is just a vehicle for what you are.
User avatar
Bandit72
 
Posts: 2480
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:04 am
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Hype » Thu May 28, 2015 5:31 am

You can already have a living will that says to turn off "life-preserving" machinery. The question is how and under what conditions can we allow competent individuals to choose to receive help in ending their lives before the conditions under which a living will would allow the family to decide when they die.
User avatar
Hype
 
Posts: 6167
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Bandit72 » Thu May 28, 2015 5:56 am

Yeh, DNR is a bit different.
User avatar
Bandit72
 
Posts: 2480
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:04 am
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Artemis » Thu May 28, 2015 6:17 am

Earlier this year the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that the ban on assisted suicide is unconstitutional. The ban will be be lifted in about a year. At the moment they have to work out the legislation on how to regulate it and how will it be carried out. I think I read that doctors may opt out for conscientious reasons.
User avatar
Artemis
 
Posts: 8020
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Romeo » Thu May 28, 2015 6:48 am

Here in the states, if a coroner rules it was suicide (even if you had a multitude of ailments or a terminal disease) a life insurance company will not payout benefits to your heirs

Happen to a friend, her aunt was 87. Suffered a stroke, had heart disease and COPD, decided to take a handful of pills one night and died. They waited for MONTHS for the coroners ruling (toxicology report)....
Thankfully he did not say "suicide". Given her age and her recent health issues....
User avatar
Romeo
 
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: St. andrews

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Sue » Thu May 28, 2015 7:32 am

The best documentary I've ever seen on this subject is How to Die in Oregon. Moving and powerful, it follows several people as they make their end of life choices. There it's not exactly physician assisted, rather than being present the doctor prescribes about 100 barbiturates and the patient chooses when to take them all at once, which is legal in Oregon. The main story follows a woman named Cody, and although I knew she was terminal with liver cancer I liked her so much I was still rooting for a twist where she would overcome her fate.
http://www.howtodieinoregon.com
User avatar
Sue
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:29 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Sue » Thu May 28, 2015 7:34 am

Bandit72 wrote:My father-in-law took his own life four weeks ago. One of the reasons was early onset Alzheimer’s.

I'm so sorry bandit. :gh:
User avatar
Sue
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:29 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Assisted dying

Postby Bandit72 » Thu May 28, 2015 11:39 am

Sue wrote:
Bandit72 wrote:My father-in-law took his own life four weeks ago. One of the reasons was early onset Alzheimer’s.

I'm so sorry bandit. :gh:


Thanks Sue. I'm OK, obviously the wife wasn't. It was hard trying to explain death to my children who are just 6 and 3. I didn't tell them the reason, I just tried to explain it in a broader sense. They are OK now, but they miss him. There is an inquest which is in August and we're in Florida so we'll have to put it back a bit and finally get some closure.
User avatar
Bandit72
 
Posts: 2480
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:04 am
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Assisted dying

Postby nausearockpig » Thu May 28, 2015 3:16 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
nausearockpig wrote:The ending of your own life should be no one else's fucking business - we should each be allowed to live and die the way we want (as long as our actions do not harm others)....


This isn't about suicide. It's about physician (or other) assistance in dying. There probably should be legislation precisely because we need to make sure, for example, that the person who dies consented. 'Consent' is a legal term. You must be competent (i.e., not brain-damaged, not a vegetable). This is why living wills are so important. End of life so often involves precisely those conditions under which consent is either exceedingly difficult or impossible to give. Furthermore, assisted dying involves an assistant, so it isn't "no one else's fucking business". It's very clearly at least one other person's business. Not to mention the tools (drugs, etc) mean that companies are involved, and could be open to lawsuits.

Your thinking is fine for the reclusive guy in the woods who has no family and decides to end it all with a shotgun. It's not helpful at all for the vast majority of people whose deaths involve hospitals, physicians, nurses, care-givers, family...


Fuck me.... What I meant (and if you re-read my post you might get it) is that 1) if someone chooses to die (by whatever means that is - and in this context i mean assisted dying for reasons of illness (as this is what the thread is about, not plain old suicide due to depression or other non-death-related-issues), then they should be allowed to make the decision to do that and (this is the important part:) and no-one else's beliefs or moral compass (such as oh, I don't know, Christians') should be in the position to prevent them from doing it 2) in a way that is best for everyone - that has government sanction (and everything that "govt. sanction" provides or implies, like doctors/nurses and a place to do it). The second part there means that killing yourself with a shotgun in your car in a car park for a car park attendant to find is NOT OK as that does harm someone else- the car park attendant is upset/scarred, others are called, family members are upset etc etc...

"Harm" means more than just physical ouchies..

Bandit72 wrote:My father-in-law took his own life four weeks ago. One of the reasons was early onset Alzheimer’s.

Sorry for your loss mate.
User avatar
nausearockpig
 
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:03 pm


Return to Current Events

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 1 guest