The "Republican" Perspective

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Re: The "Republican" Perspective

Postby Hype » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:56 am

It's not that the poor and working class are not particularly bright. Though education and class do correlate, it doesn't matter. Propaganda and control of messaging aren't about being intelligent enough to see through it. There are loads of people with college educations and high-income jobs who don't always see media, advertising, corporate messaging, etc., for what it is. Part of what marketing assholes bank on is that we just run out of energy. This is a basic maxim of sales: willpower only goes so far. So children are easy to hook: you just market directly, overtly, to their senses. Adults might take subliminal marketing, or deceit... but it's again got nothing to do with intelligence.

If you've ever been suckered into paying for something you really really really didn't intend to pay for, and even realized that you mistakenly thought it was a deal... you've experienced the same phenomenon as the one that I think lies behind a lot of this.

There are so many foundations, funds, lobbying groups, and think-tanks. It's true that these exist for liberals/democrats too, but it's difficult, if not impossible. to see how you could spin support for liberal/democratic policies as against the interests of the poor and working class. The fact is, most people don't care enough to think carefully about these issues, and generally support whatever sounds best to them. You might think this suffices for self-interest, and in a narrow sense, yeah, it does, but it's not rational self-interest, which is what is required for a social contract.
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Re: The "Republican" Perspective

Postby mockbee » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:19 am

Adurentibus Spina wrote:It's not that the poor and working class are not particularly bright. Though education and class do correlate, it doesn't matter. Propaganda and control of messaging aren't about being intelligent enough to see through it. There are loads of people with college educations and high-income jobs who don't always see media, advertising, corporate messaging, etc., for what it is. Part of what marketing assholes bank on is that we just run out of energy. This is a basic maxim of sales: willpower only goes so far. So children are easy to hook: you just market directly, overtly, to their senses. Adults might take subliminal marketing, or deceit... but it's again got nothing to do with intelligence.

If you've ever been suckered into paying for something you really really really didn't intend to pay for, and even realized that you mistakenly thought it was a deal... you've experienced the same phenomenon as the one that I think lies behind a lot of this.

There are so many foundations, funds, lobbying groups, and think-tanks. It's true that these exist for liberals/democrats too, but it's difficult, if not impossible. to see how you could spin support for liberal/democratic policies as against the interests of the poor and working class. The fact is, most people don't care enough to think carefully about these issues, and generally support whatever sounds best to them. You might think this suffices for self-interest, and in a narrow sense, yeah, it does, but it's not rational self-interest, which is what is required for a social contract.


So you would agree with my statement........?
Really, it's the proletariat we need to concern our efforts with reforming...........not politicians.

Politicians aren't stupid...................they get elected. :noclue:



My comments, or references, to the delusional proletariat is not without merit. My extended family, and many, many, many people of the working poor that I have conversed with say they are concerned about what the government can take from them.........when they have nothing. Then, in turn, take actions that fly in the face of reason. Just look at a parking lot at any area indian casino, or las vegas, or the lottery or keno* (*serious investment strategy by some close relatives..... :neutral: )

They are all a ticket, a pull on a lever or a couple numbers away from never having to worry about money again. And when they get there, when they get to that promised land ".......I don't want guvmnt' take all that I have earned fer meself! They gotta keep their grubby hands off a my money!" (verbatim................... :scared: )

You are right, they are not stupid.......well, just as stupid as some rich guy....but intelligence really isn't a factor in this, I agree with you there.

A huge contingent of working poor are delusional--- just like the rest of us are, in one way or another.

It's just unfortunate that their delusion cements themselves in shitty circumstances, while the upper crust and middle class (what's left of them) get to sit pretty in their delusions, enjoying a second million dollar condo or mailing off another $100 check to PETA......


I really like this Steinbeck quote:


"A Primer on the '30s." Esquire, June 1960: 85-93.

"Except for the field organizers of strikes, who were pretty tough monkeys and devoted, most of the so-called Communists I met were middle-class, middle-aged people playing a game of dreams. I remember a woman in easy circumstances saying to another even more affluent: 'After the revolution even we will have more, won't we, dear?' Then there was another lover of proletarians who used to raise hell with Sunday picknickers on her property.
"I guess the trouble was that we didn't have any self-admitted proletarians. Everyone was a temporarily embarrassed capitalist. Maybe the Communists so closely questioned by the investigation committees were a danger to America, but the ones I knew—at least they claimed to be Communists—couldn't have disrupted a Sunday-school picnic. Besides they were too busy fighting among themselves."
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Re: The "Republican" Perspective

Postby Hype » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:48 pm

It's not a personal responsibility issue, it's a collective/social responsibility issue. If we don't have educated, powerful people (i.e., people who can change things) who believe that things need to be done differently, things won't be done differently. So-called "grass-roots" movements make use of ordinary people, but are only successful if there's some kind of change in power. You either storm the Bastille or you hope that enough people are able to be convinced to vote against the worst policies. Rarely is democracy able to produce anything resembling a "best" candidate. Emotions are the best way to motivate people, especially fear and anger, so if the Right or the Wealthy can leverage that, they will be able to maintain power just by throwing money at ways to generate those emotions toward their opponents, no matter how stupid the people or policies that remain in place are.
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Re: The "Republican" Perspective

Postby mockbee » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:06 pm

I agree, we can't just sit around and wait for the working poor to figure out their own problems (which in turn are all of our problems). I think that is what you are saying. But are you also saying, it is just a matter of getting more of them to vote, and in turn vote bad people out of office and then we can start getting somewhere? I don't think it is as simple as that.


I think what you might be getting at, is how do we use the same leverage, that the Right and wealthy use (and the elite liberal class) to make people believe they are voting for their best self interest, when really they are voting people in who maintain or often worsen the status quo.

It is a collective problem, yes. How do "we" (the educated, liberal, young with time on our hands class) address it without seeming preachy and condescending? That is a real question I have, and I think one Obama really struggles with in terms of connecting with people. Clinton, as in Bill, was a master at that........honestly, he should be president again.......... He might not lean left enough for my taste, but he would do really well, especially in connecting with the plebs.
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Re: The "Republican" Perspective

Postby Hype » Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:56 pm

My favourite American politician is Bernie Sanders, because he isn't really a politician. He's an activist who somehow managed to get into office. Here's one thing he's been pushing for: http://www.politicususa.com/2015/04/15/ ... thers.html

I think the issue is, frankly, it’s not just Hillary, Elizabeth, or Bernie Sanders, or anybody else. This country faces enormous problems. Our middle-class is disappearing. We [have] more people living in poverty than at any time in the history of America. We’re the only major country without a national health care program guaranteeing health care for all people. What’s it all about? The question is this one basic question. How to take on a billionaire class, which has so much economic power, and with Citizens United, can now buy elections. Where we are moving in many ways towards an oligarchic form of society rather than our traditional democracy.
Who is prepared to do it? So let me just say this, no president, not Hillary, not Bernie Sanders, not anybody, will succeed unless there is a mass mobilization of millions of people who stand up and say, enough is enough. Koch brothers and billionaires can’t have it all.
….
The bottom line is we need people to stand up to the billionaire class, and their economic and political power. That is what we need.


The problem is that because he's not afraid to call himself what he is, a socialist, the so-called "Bubbas" (as Mike "Gay for Jesus" Huckabee calls them) won't really listen to what he's saying.

One of the most important things I got out of living in Wisconsin for the brief time I did was how fucked up the difference between affluent, educated, white collar university townsfolk and their brothers in the villages and towns everywhere else really is. It's fucked up precisely because it's not a real difference: it's an arbitrary orchestrated one that plays on both in-group/out-group hostility and fear of increased hardship. The city of Madison tries to do something good; cue backlash from the batshit extremists who don't just say they disagree with a policy, but express outright anger toward the city itself. It's really absurd. Especially since often these issues would benefit the very people that get angry.
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Re: The "Republican" Perspective

Postby mockbee » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:08 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:One of the most important things I got out of living in Wisconsin for the brief time I did was how fucked up the difference between affluent, educated, white collar university townsfolk and their brothers in the villages and towns everywhere else really is. It's fucked up precisely because it's not a real difference: it's an arbitrary orchestrated one that plays on both in-group/out-group hostility and fear of increased hardship. The city of Madison tries to do something good; cue backlash from the batshit extremists who don't just say they disagree with a policy, but express outright anger toward the city itself. It's really absurd. Especially since often these issues would benefit the very people that get angry.


Welcome to American politics.

Not that you weren't aware of textbook and media American politics in the academic sense, but on the ground, it's an entirely different ballgame. :balls:

Is this the case in Canada as well? Or not to this degree..... or dare I say worse? :neutral:
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Re: The "Republican" Perspective

Postby Hype » Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:16 pm

City-mouse/country-mouse has been around forever. It was probably true in Ancient Athens.

People identify with their region and the way they live, and tend to exaggerate the differences between their way of life and that of others.
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Re: The "Republican" Perspective

Postby Hype » Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:28 pm

Here's more fun stuff: http://www.politifact.com/texas/stateme ... ess-10000/

Of course, "workers" isn’t all of us. We called the Washington, D.C.-based institute, which says it was founded in 1978 to deliver unbiased information on employee benefit plans "so that decisions affecting the system may be made based on verifiable facts." By phone, researcher Craig Copeland told us that overall, 51 percent of survey respondents, meaning retirees and others, had less than $10,000 in financial savings.


Sanders said: "Half of all Americans have less than $10,000 in their savings account."

Some clarification went missing here: A 2014 survey indicated about half of American adults had less than $10,000 in savings and investments, such as a 401(k) or IRA, that could be used for retirement; those results encompassed more than savings accounts.

We rate this claim Mostly True.


It's actually worse than Sanders claims. :jasper:
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Re: The "Republican" Perspective

Postby LJF » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:52 am

[quote="mockbee"]Americans ----conservative and liberal:


TAKE NOTICE!


( well at least to the 1-2 Americans I am talking to on here..... :wink: ....... :lol: :sad: )

Well, LJF should be happy.


What should I be happy about?
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Re: The "Republican" Perspective

Postby Hype » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:54 am

Nothing. Don't worry about it. :lol:
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Re: The "Republican" Perspective

Postby mockbee » Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:41 am

LJF wrote:
mockbee wrote:
Well, LJF should be happy.

What should I be happy about?


That is appears to be 76 F and sunny in NY/NJ, and that it is a great day to be outside and enjoy the day!

:wave:
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