Emma Watson and equality

[Hype]

Right, so my point was that it was analogous to what many women experience not just in isolated areas or on vacation in shitty countries, but near-constantly. Hyper-vigilance isn't a healthy mental state.

And when I said "extremely invasive and forceful" I didn't necessarily mean physically. It's as simple as putting you on extreme edge by sitting a certain way in a chair or giving you a certain look, or speaking a certain way. And in my case it wasn't sexual, it was just generalized tension (possibility of being mugged/robbed, or just harassed, or whatever...).

[SR]

I agree with everything in the article, except I think she overestimates women's ability to decipher the vibe of men. We're worse than she thinks.

[Essence_Smith]

We're worse than she thinks.

I would tend to agree with you, but is it good to prejudge anyone based on the worst examples of their kind you've come across?

[Everybody's Friend]

We're worse than she thinks.

I would tend to agree with you, but is it good to prejudge anyone based on the worst examples of their kind you've come across?

It may not be "good" but it may be natural to be made to be more cautious...

[Essence_Smith]

I don't know how to feel about this one really, but if you were the guy in the 8 Ball jacket what would you have done? At first I saw it was like damn, but I dunno...the girl is being charged with felony assault...

[perkana]

Person A saying to Person B "bless you" or whatever they say in their country when some else sneezes = definitely not harassment! Person A is just trying to be polite. It might be unnecessary and awkward.

You didn't understand that bit, they meant it as in "Bless you woman for your incredible booty". And that is harrassment, like it says, by using the G word doesn't make you less of a creep. And they didn't mean innocent conversations, more like flirting conversations. On the subway or anywhere, it is harrassment if it's uninvited.

[Hype]

I don't know how to feel about this one really, but if you were the guy in the 8 Ball jacket what would you have done? At first I saw it was like damn, but I dunno...the girl is being charged with felony assault...

I think that's why they invented tranquilizers.

[Essence_Smith]

Person A saying to Person B "bless you" or whatever they say in their country when some else sneezes = definitely not harassment! Person A is just trying to be polite. It might be unnecessary and awkward.

You didn't understand that bit, they meant it as in "Bless you woman for your incredible booty". And that is harrassment, like it says, by using the G word doesn't make you less of a creep. And they didn't mean innocent conversations, more like flirting conversations. On the subway or anywhere, it is harrassment if it's uninvited.

I think the word harassment is thrown around a little too lightly...I don't see how "hey beautiful" a bad thing. And how does one "invite" a compliment? I think there is a fine line and I get it and some guys don't, but when people (on either side) can't tell the difference between a flirtatious compliment like "hey beautiful" and something completely inappropriate and or disrespectful there's a problem. Some men need to stop being assholes and some women need to be able to grow a thicker skin...for the record the woman who did that video stated that she did NOT mind the "beautifuls" and that the more aggressive things like the guy following her were what made her feel badly...huge difference...

[perkana]

It's easy, if someone doesn't give you a smile or looks at you in an inviting, friendly way and they're just walking, minding their own business. It's as easy as that
And I agree with everything you've said ES. It's just damn uncomfortable, it's been ages since I've been in that situation. But it's still awful when people who don't know you tell you how to behave.

[Essence_Smith]

It's easy, if someone doesn't give you a smile or looks at you in an inviting, friendly way and they're just walking, minding their own business. It's as easy as that
And I agree with everything you've said ES. It's just damn uncomfortable, it's been ages since I've been in that situation. But it's still awful when people who don't know you tell you how to behave.

I definitely understand what most women are saying here. I think I have a problem with it kind of being filed under harassment. I talk to strangers on the street CONSTANTLY...and I grew up with some pretty smooth dudes who instead of actually telling a girl they should smile would say something like "excuse me, I don't mean to sound funny but it would make my day if you could just smile"...if the girl smiled they would thank them, wish them a good day and everyone went on about their business...chances are they'd see the girl again in the neighborhood and THEN they'd try and get their phone number or something. These were respectful dudes who knew exactly how to approach someone and they weren't demanding anything, they were always polite as hell and I learned a lot from them...no offense to her, but farrellgirl and some others here give off this vibe that there's no room for a guy to approach a woman they don't know on the street at all. I know no one's said as much but it seems that any approach is a bad thing to hear them tell it...

[Hype]

why would it be a woman's job to make some random dude's day by smiling? That shit doesn't even make any sense.

[Essence_Smith]

why would it be a woman's job to make some random dude's day by smiling? That shit doesn't even make any sense.

It's just a line dude...they were trying to see if they could get a girl they didn't know who they found attractive to smile, period. Nothing more...and if the girl didn't smile it would be "have a nice day" and that was it. Who in the hell said it was a woman's job???? This is what I'm talking about...of course there are some men who feel they're entitled to a response and are complete assholes, but then you have others who are simply trying to make conversation or get a reaction and if it leads to a friendship then cool...this attitude that somehow the very act of trying to get their attention in the first place is disappointing. I know intentions don't mean a thing if a woman walks away feeling negative, etc but christ how do you meet people at that point? Is there a time that's appropriate? Do you need a proper introduction all the time?

[Hype]

but christ how do you meet people at that point?

As a character on The Simpsons once said, paraphrased: "through a mutual friend like a normal person."

The whole concept of hitting on women randomly on the street without any other context doesn't make sense to me unless you see women as receptive vessels waiting to be "picked up" (hence: pickup lines?) rather than people who have lives they're trying to live independently. The line you mention above really just seems like it assumes that making that dude happy is what a woman, any woman, should want to do... which is odd unless you don't think women are entitled to not have to deal with the expectations of random men on the street.

There are so many contexts in which trying to "meet people" is possible, and maybe even desirable... through friends, bars, through hobbies...

Failblog is usually pretty stupid, but this is a good one:

[Essence_Smith]

but christ how do you meet people at that point?

As a character on The Simpsons once said, paraphrased: "through a mutual friend like a normal person."

The whole concept of hitting on women randomly on the street without any other context doesn't make sense to me unless you see women as receptive vessels waiting to be "picked up" (hence: pickup lines?) rather than people who have lives they're trying to live independently. The line you mention above really just seems like it assumes that making that dude happy is what a woman, any woman, should want to do... which is odd unless you don't think women are entitled to not have to deal with the expectations of random men on the street.

There are so many contexts in which trying to "meet people" is possible, and maybe even desirable... through friends, bars, through hobbies...

Failblog is usually pretty stupid, but this is a good one:

You're making the assumption that a reaction from a woman is the expectation in that situation. I really think there are cases where people are hoping they get someone's attention, not expecting or feeling they're entitled to it and this is one example. And what is the difference in a bar really? It's still a stranger...trust that I get where you're going with the thought process, I just think there are exceptions and situations where people are just attempting to be friendly and have no threatening agenda other than the possibility than getting a cute girl's attention that might lead to a conversation at some point. I personally think meeting women in bars actually sucks because no one is really themselves when drugs are involved. Aside from that I'll just agree to disagree with you I guess...no one's saying women are vessels to be picked up but I think there are some situations where there's nothing wrong with politely trying to start a conversation with someone. I've done it a million times and unless you immediately bring attention to your feelings about someone's appearance I don't think it qualifies as hitting on someone...I'm not talking about construction workers shouting to a woman about how she looks necessarily, I'm referring to a guy politely complimenting someone, getting a smile or favorable response and then starting a conversation. I met my wife walking down the street one day...I smiled, she said hello and I introduced myself...we had no mutual friends to speak of (as far as I knew, turns out I'd known her brother casually for years) and wouldn't have met had I waited for a particular situation. This stuff is being blown out of proportion...

[Hype]

There are always going to be exceptions... I think I mentioned a while back that the same is true with grad students dating undergrads or professors dating grad students... it's a really bad idea that sometimes works out positively. But that doesn't stop it from being a bad idea in general. Obviously your case worked out. But that doesn't mean it should be normal or acceptable. Lots of arranged marriages work out, but those probably shouldn't be acceptable, in general, either.

[Essence_Smith]

There are always going to be exceptions... I think I mentioned a while back that the same is true with grad students dating undergrads or professors dating grad students... it's a really bad idea that sometimes works out positively. But that doesn't stop it from being a bad idea in general. Obviously your case worked out. But that doesn't mean it should be normal or acceptable. Lots of arranged marriages work out, but those probably shouldn't be acceptable, in general, either.

I dunno what to say at this point...I definitely understand how it is for women out there...I have four sisters and two daughters...I've seen the full spectrum of how it can go when guys approach women randomly on the street...everything from guys exchanging numbers with women and it leading to relationships to dudes cursing at and even throwing objects at women for not responding...that stuff is disgusting but I don't think it counts for what's going on in a guy's head every time it happens. I get what you're saying about the proper setting and context, I just think one scenario is as good as any other provided the person initiating has some respect for both themselves and the person they're attempting to approach.

[perkana]

It's easy, if someone doesn't give you a smile or looks at you in an inviting, friendly way and they're just walking, minding their own business. It's as easy as that
And I agree with everything you've said ES. It's just damn uncomfortable, it's been ages since I've been in that situation. But it's still awful when people who don't know you tell you how to behave.

I definitely understand what most women are saying here. I think I have a problem with it kind of being filed under harassment. I talk to strangers on the street CONSTANTLY...and I grew up with some pretty smooth dudes who instead of actually telling a girl they should smile would say something like "excuse me, I don't mean to sound funny but it would make my day if you could just smile"...if the girl smiled they would thank them, wish them a good day and everyone went on about their business...chances are they'd see the girl again in the neighborhood and THEN they'd try and get their phone number or something. These were respectful dudes who knew exactly how to approach someone and they weren't demanding anything, they were always polite as hell and I learned a lot from them...no offense to her, but farrellgirl and some others here give off this vibe that there's no room for a guy to approach a woman they don't know on the street at all. I know no one's said as much but it seems that any approach is a bad thing to hear them tell it...

That's the thing, you have to know when it's right. If the woman is approachable and friendly, go ahead. Last time a guy told me why I should date him. A total strange jackass. His argument was that I was too hard on myself and that I should give us a chance. Like wtf?. I was a bit tipsy and he made me angrier the moment he said more shit like that. He asked my number and guess what? I had to give him a fake one because he couldn't believe that I didn't have my cell phone with me. I just had to give him anything for him to leave me the fuck alone.
I myself talk to strangers a lot. People seem to like to tell me the story of their lives. It's not like I'm against talking to strangers, just the cat calling and what happened to me.

[LJF]

but christ how do you meet people at that point?

As a character on The Simpsons once said, paraphrased: "through a mutual friend like a normal person."

The whole concept of hitting on women randomly on the street without any other context doesn't make sense to me unless you see women as receptive vessels waiting to be "picked up" (hence: pickup lines?) rather than people who have lives they're trying to live independently. The line you mention above really just seems like it assumes that making that dude happy is what a woman, any woman, should want to do... which is odd unless you don't think women are entitled to not have to deal with the expectations of random men on the street.

There are so many contexts in which trying to "meet people" is possible, and maybe even desirable... through friends, bars, through hobbies...



So how does someone meet someone that they find attractive and would like to get to know if they don't have a mutual friend? This is a serious question, have you ever seen someone that you wanted to get to know and just walked up and tried to start a conversation with them? I get where you are coming from with some of the things you've said, but I'm just wondering where we would all be if we just waiting for in intro vs sometimes just walking up and starting a conversation.

[perkana]

My problem is not actually meeting people, my problem is becoming friends or hanging out with them. I know it's an excuse, but I live in a very big city. So it's easier if you meet someone who lives near you or who goes to work around the same area.
I've had very positive experiences meeting guys at bars, but that one time. However, I've just noticed that it isn't as easy as it was in my 20's.

[Hype]

I didn't mean to rule out starting conversations with people you don't know. Of course there are lots of cases where this will just happen naturally, or where you just go for it. It's easy to imagine standing at a bus stop waiting for a bus and being blown away by some good looking human, and therefore deciding to strike up a conversation with the hope that maybe somehow it will turn into something else (especially if they get on the same bus and sit with you). I think ES and I aren't that far off... there's a line, and it's not clear exactly where it is, but it's somewhere between not talking to anyone you don't already know and sticking your hand up the dress of every woman you see... More seriously, I don't think any common sense view about treating other human beings with respect (which does not mean doing what you want in a "respectful" way, but treating them, as Kant would say, as "ends in themselves", i.e., as autonomous agents whose lives are independent of yours) would ever result in people being unable to find other people to mate with...

So yeah, there are lots of cases where you'll get lucky and meet someone randomly. But I think it's clear that it's both unwanted and unacceptable to think that it's just fine to think trying to pick up random women on the street, without any other kind of context that might make it an exception (like small-talk waiting for a bus...)

If you're not careful, I guess this could happen:

[Hype]

...

[Essence_Smith]

That Seinfeld was crazy...I have a confession... I was quite the pickup guy when I was single which is partly why I feel strongly about this. Lots of crazy incidents and stories but they're mostly positive...I once accidentally pulled a chair out from underneath a girl and still managed to get her number. I think there's a whole culture of guys who pickup girls and girls who go out looking for attention, but it's a whole different conversation...but let's be straight, aside from typically places like bars I know there are plenty of other places like the supermarket or the laundromat where women go with some intention of possibly meeting someone that aren't traditional settings...to quote George Costanza its all about "signals"...before I even approached a woman I didn't know I would have to have some sort of signal to go for...eye contact, a smile, something to let me know I wasn't going to play myself...again I think there are cultural aspects involved here...I have met MANY women on buses, trains, you name it and I never got a scowl or negative reply...even if they weren't interested they were as polite as I was...I know EXACTLY where that line is...and unfortunately I have never stuck my hand up a woman's dress but I did have a strange woman stick her hand down my pants...the world is crazy...

[Hype]

I have met MANY women on buses, trains, you name it and I never got a scowl or negative reply...even if they weren't interested they were as polite as I was

I think this is tricky. A lot of the recent conversation has been about how women don't feel safe NOT being polite, or being negative... In your case, well, from your internet persona we could assume that you wouldn't have harmed a woman if she did give you a response you didn't like, but there are too many stories of this for it not to be troubling anyway. When you say you know exactly where the line is, I wonder whether this might be overconfident... but again, it's one case, so even if we take your word for it, there's still the fact that many people don't know there's a line, or don't care.

Someone's boss might think it's okay to be jokey with employees, even about sexual topics, and they might be utterly confident that they have common sense and know exactly where the line is, because no one has ever complained, but then one person complains, and all of a sudden a number of other women might turn up who say that they never said anything because they were worried about negative repercussions.

This discussion really started somewhere around 40 years ago, but it seems to have gone relatively quiet for the Gen-X years, and surged back up again recently... (I take it that Third-Wave feminism is the current form, and that this began with Gen-X, but it's also been a pretty tricky form to get a handle on... the post-structuralist influence puts it at odds with the older forms... in ways that some academics and many non-academics find difficult to interact with....)

[Essence_Smith]

...

This is awesome...

[perkana]

I liked George better than Seinfeld, if you made me choose. I would choose George (my favorite episode is when he eats an eclair from the waste basket and he gets caught. Then there's some fire alarm and he tramples on the girl's poor grandma )