Emma Watson and equality

[SR]

Finally.

https://celebrity.yahoo.com/blogs/celeb ... 42194.html

[Essence_Smith]

My sis is a pretty established spoken word artists, lectures at colleges, etc and I think the only woman I know who I'd consider a feminist who doesn't come across as anti-man. Personally I think part of the problem is some women want their cake and eat it too...don't get me wrong I'm not for any inequality or mistreatment of women, but I do believe in certain gender roles...

[Hype]

but I do believe in certain gender roles

The problem with thinking about it this way is that you make a generalized assumption that not everyone fits... (oh, plus there's the confusion of sex with gender).

Some people are born with the genitals of a sex but don't identify (either wholly or partly) with the gender we usually associate with it, and/or they identify with (in whole or in part) another gender.

There are facts about what physical characteristics sex hormones tend to produce in people, but these don't always track which sex we think they are, or which gender they identify with.

When you say you believe in "certain gender roles", I suspect you mean something like: "It makes sense for women to be nurturers, and to take the dominant role in childrearing" or "men are best suited to doing heavy lifting or physical work" or something like that. And there's some truth in this, but the problem is that not all females identify as women, and not all males identify as men, and not all people who do fit the normal gender identity have bodies that fit the traditional assumptions about what they're suited for, and not all people who have bodies that do fit have minds that are best suited for it...

I know there are at least a couple of people who post here who think a lot of this stuff is new-wave feminazi bullshit, but for fans of Jane's Addiction to have trouble understanding that individual people might have different ideas about who they want to be than what you or I think they ought to based on normalcy or convention or whatever... boggles my mind. If some female-bodied person wants to live as a man whatever way they can manage, or just do "traditionally womanly" things, why not let them? What possible reason could there be for saying "No." to that? It's not harming anyone. We're not going to lose whatever value you might think there is in traditional gender roles by allowing people who feel differently to be different (so long as they're not going out and harming anyone else).

[Essence_Smith]

I'll respond more specifically to what I meant later, but lest we forget I am a black man that loves Jane's Addiction...nothing typical about how I see life, gender, etc to begin with...I am good with people identifying with what wouldn't be considered the "norm" whatever that is...

[Hype]

I'll respond more specifically to what I meant later, but lest we forget I am a black man that loves Jane's Addiction...nothing typical about how I see life, gender, etc to begin with...I am good with people identifying with what wouldn't be considered the "norm" whatever that is...

I'm sure your view is nuanced, and I'm sure we agree much more than we disagree... that one sentence of yours just caught my attention.

[farrellgirl99]

My sis is a pretty established spoken word artists, lectures at colleges, etc and I think the only woman I know who I'd consider a feminist who doesn't come across as anti-man. Personally I think part of the problem is some women want their cake and eat it too...don't get me wrong I'm not for any inequality or mistreatment of women, but I do believe in certain gender roles...

can you explain what you mean by women want their cake and to eat it too?

also, i think if you engaged with more feminists, you would find that most are not "anti-man". i think thats an ignorant presumption. feminists are for equality - getting paid the same, being treated the same, etc. we do not want to see the downfall of man or want men to suffer. that is bullshit. we would just like to walk down the street without being harassed or make the same salary as a man in the same position.

i think a major problem is that men think they have a right to engage with women and women's bodies. i was walking in brooklyn the other day and a man told me to smile. i walked by without saying anything because i have been taught to fear what a man might say or do to me if i respond in a negative way (especially if i am walking alone under a bridge, like i was). but i wanted to tell him to go fuck himself. i bet a lot of people here, or anywhere, would think i am overreacting or am anti-man. why cant a man tell me to smile? why cant i take a compliment? but really, its about personal space and ownership. fuck that guy for telling me how to be and for assuming i want his opinion. and fuck anyone who thinks its okay to talk to random women on the street.

[Xizen47]

and fuck anyone who thinks its okay to talk to random women on the street.

By talk to you mean hit on?

I talk to random People all the time

[farrellgirl99]

and fuck anyone who thinks its okay to talk to random women on the street.

By talk to you mean hit on?

I talk to random People all the time

No, I don't just mean being hit on. I don't think the guy telling me to smile was necessarily hitting on me, but he was saying something unsolicited about my demeanor and body.

Cat calling is one way, obviously. But I also think more "innocent" forms of communication or actions can be just as disrespectful. If a guy comes up and says hello and tries to initiate conversation, and the woman does not want to engage in conversation, it can be very hard for the guy to accept rejection. This is more what I am talking about and what I think many guys do not reflect on. When a woman says no, in any situation, it is often not taken seriously. If a man goes up to a woman on the street and says "Hi, beautiful, how are you?" and the woman replies "I do not want to talk to you" how many guys would continue to try and talk to the woman to persuade her to continue talking? How many would take offense and curse out the woman? How many would respect that woman's wishes and walk away? I'm just bringing this up because too many guys take the approach that their advances or compliments or conversation starters are always welcome and often, they are not.

This is not meant to be an attack on men, but men often take any criticism of common male behavior personally (re: the #notallmen twitter situation from a few months ago). This is the defensive nature I am critical of, and the reason why I react strongly when people think feminists are anti-man. No, we are anti misogynistic or patriarchal behavior. I am anti- being approached by random guys on the street.

And also, I am sure when you talk to random people you are respectful. Please, don't take this as an accusatory post. I'm also not referring to if you make eye contact with someone you pass on the street and say hello in a normal human interaction or if you make small talk with someone that is open to it at a grocery store or waiting on line etc. Every situation is different, but I also think it's hard for men to envision what walking around as a woman is/can be like. And it's important to have an open discussion about these things and to respect women's personal experiences.

[wally]

and fuck anyone who thinks its okay to talk to random women on the street.

By talk to you mean hit on?

I talk to random People all the time

No, I don't just mean being hit on. I don't think the guy telling me to smile was necessarily hitting on me, but he was saying something unsolicited about my demeanor and body.

Cat calling is one way, obviously. But I also think more "innocent" forms of communication or actions can be just as disrespectful. If a guy comes up and says hello and tries to initiate conversation, and the woman does not want to engage in conversation, it can be very hard for the guy to accept rejection. This is more what I am talking about and what I think many guys do not reflect on. When a woman says no, in any situation, it is often not taken seriously. If a man goes up to a woman on the street and says "Hi, beautiful, how are you?" and the woman replies "I do not want to talk to you" how many guys would continue to try and talk to the woman to persuade her to continue talking? How many would take offense and curse out the woman? How many would respect that woman's wishes and walk away? I'm just bringing this up because too many guys take the approach that their advances or compliments or conversation starters are always welcome and often, they are not.



This is not meant to be an attack on men, but men often take any criticism of common male behavior personally (re: the #notallmen twitter situation from a few months ago). This is the defensive nature I am critical of, and the reason why I react strongly when people think feminists are anti-man. No, we are anti misogynistic or patriarchal behavior. I am anti- being approached by random guys on the street.

And also, I am sure when you talk to random people you are respectful. Please, don't take this as an accusatory post. I'm also not referring to if you make eye contact with someone you pass on the street and say hello in a normal human interaction or if you make small talk with someone that is open to it at a grocery store or waiting on line etc. Every situation is different, but I also think it's hard for men to envision what walking around as a woman is/can be like. And it's important to have an open discussion about these things and to respect women's personal experiences.

your post does sound anti man, specifically this part "I am anti- being approached by random guys on the street" would you react so harshly to a woman that told you to smile? given your demeanor in these posts i doubt its a stretch to assume you walk around with a dour look on your face, and I'm not surprised someone told you to smile. Your post also sounds anti-community (if that's a thing) and I'm glad you don't live in my neighborhood, as I enjoy striking up conversations with my neighbors, be they male, female or somewhere in between.

[Essence_Smith]

My sis is a pretty established spoken word artists, lectures at colleges, etc and I think the only woman I know who I'd consider a feminist who doesn't come across as anti-man. Personally I think part of the problem is some women want their cake and eat it too...don't get me wrong I'm not for any inequality or mistreatment of women, but I do believe in certain gender roles...

can you explain what you mean by women want their cake and to eat it too?

also, i think if you engaged with more feminists, you would find that most are not "anti-man". i think thats an ignorant presumption. feminists are for equality - getting paid the same, being treated the same, etc. we do not want to see the downfall of man or want men to suffer. that is bullshit. we would just like to walk down the street without being harassed or make the same salary as a man in the same position.

i think a major problem is that men think they have a right to engage with women and women's bodies. i was walking in brooklyn the other day and a man told me to smile. i walked by without saying anything because i have been taught to fear what a man might say or do to me if i respond in a negative way (especially if i am walking alone under a bridge, like i was). but i wanted to tell him to go fuck himself. i bet a lot of people here, or anywhere, would think i am overreacting or am anti-man. why cant a man tell me to smile? why cant i take a compliment? but really, its about personal space and ownership. fuck that guy for telling me how to be and for assuming i want his opinion. and fuck anyone who thinks its okay to talk to random women on the street.

The problem I have with these conversations is that we end up dealing with generalizations...I didn't say all, most or even some feminists are "anti-man"...I was referring to the ones I've come across and I said as much. Your example of the guy telling you to smile is a great example of what I'm talking about...and believe me I have two girls and they've had to deal with people in NY going so far as grabbing an arm trying to get their attention, etc. and I'm not with that at all. But all respect due, in theory there is NOTHING wrong with a guy asking you to smile. There's a respectful and disrespectful way to go about it, and I hear you, but this is what I mean (kind of) by cake and eat it too...and again we are GENERALIZING. Some women are CLEARLY looking for attention and some are not... and a lot of men are too dumb to tell the difference, or know how to go about complimenting or trying to get someone's attention politely. So assuming that hair, nails, makeup and nice outfits and shoes are done not exclusively because a woman just wants to feel good and look nice for her own personal satisfaction...is there anything wrong with a man who doesn't know a woman paying a compliment in a polite way? Because I do it all the time and most women I do it to (and believe me I choose carefully) smile and thank me...

Today my boss told my my new haircut made me look handsome...but office politics say that I can't pay her a similar compliment, because we have a fine line with these situations. I wasn't offended, but it's not necessarily a fair situation...

I guess my problem is with the label itself...it conjures different things in my head and I'll willfully admit my experience is very limited. I take issue with people who would call themselves "pro-black" because some would take it to mean they're anti white...and I've come across so called feminists who clearly don't care for men and use examples such as the one you mentioned for reasons why. So I understand and respect where you're coming from, but I just can't get with the term I guess...

Gender roles? I should have clarified a bit better...I took the supposed dominant role in childrearing as my wife's career was in a different place when my son was born...so I was the one up during the night feeding, she worked the long hours and was making more; I was home with the kids...so I don't necessarily think that traditional "roles" are necessarily practical or "normal"...I was proud when people would come up to me on the street because they saw me pushing the stroller all the time, etc...I don't believe in that per say...I do think there are certain qualities (and again I'm generalizing which I dislike) that are more feminine than masculine...I am clearly ranting a bit here, and I'm at work so I don't know how coherent I'm being, but yeah I'm fine with some people deciding to go against the grain and be the guy that wears makeup and a dress...I wore a dress onstage 20 years ago, lol...who cares? Different issue than people wanting to get paid the same, etc...I think there's a bit of confusion and I admit I lumped them together, but one thing I found humorous was how I said cake and eat it too (inviting trouble) and immediately someone jumped on it...and I am almost 99.9% sure that the dude that told farrellgirl she should smile was a black guy...ok rant done...

[Hype]

Actually, I think this is generational. Watson, Farrellgirl, and even me, are from a younger generation... the Gen-Xers are now the older generation whose norms, while more progressive than the Boomers, never made it as far as "kids these days" think is right. Farrellgirl's supposed "anti-man" claim only seems that way if you think it's just fine for men to approach women they don't know and tell them to behave differently than they are. Of course this seems normal. But the fact is that many women don't like it, so it ought to be one of those things people don't do without, you know... knowing a person... It would bug the shit out of me if someone invaded my thought-processes out of the blue on the street like that, but I'm a man, and it's never happened. The evidence is that this is something that women have to deal with more than men, and that many women don't like it... so why accuse the women who don't like it of being "anti-man"? Isn't it just that they're different, and their differences aren't being respected? Shouldn't they be?

[Essence_Smith]

If a woman is walking by with her head down and you just pop up out of the blue and do something like that...

If you happen to make eye contact and you say it with a smile on your face I think in certain areas it's ok...under a bridge or in a dark alley? No...in a public park on a sunny day? Better...but I remember being a single guy once and asking strange women to smile and they usually would...I think it's not just generational, it's also cultural...I also remember the first guy I saw do it making eye contact, telling the girl she looked beautiful and then saying that it would make his day if she would just smile...and she did...and again, I get where you're both coming from, but in theory I think it's ok if done politely...if the guy just rolled up and said "hey girl, smile" demanding it, that's different than what I'm saying...it may not be appealing, but as I tell my girls, unfortunately women could walk around wearing burlap sacks and men will still try and get their attention...

[farrellgirl99]

I didn't expect much from the people who post here because while I'm sure you are all good people and respectful in your daily life, many of you are older men who, as AS said, are of a different generation who probably grew up with a different set of attitudes towards gender and women. I get it.

But it is still frustrating that my experiences as a 20-something female are immediately invalidated and dismissed by older men who don't have to deal with these situations every time they walk outside. It says a lot about why women like me are angry and need feminism.

Wally, thank you for assuming I must be someone you wouldn't want in your neighborhood because I don't like it when a random guy addresses me and tells me how to act. This was a stranger in a place I do not live so I am totally in the wrong for not reacting kindly to his advice about how I should be walking down the street. And yes, I tell all my neighbors to go fuck themselves when they say hi to me and talk to me. It's totally the same! I'm a fucking man hater!

ES, I appreciate your more thought out response. I do think there is something wrong with someone I do not know telling me how I should act so I am more pleasing to him/the world. I do not owe anyone a response. Am I saying you are a bad person if you talk to women on the street? No, but I am saying your behavior might not be as appreciated as you think to some women. It is situational of course, as is everything.

I know it must be hard for men to realize that not everyone of their well intentioned compliments or conversation starters is appreciated. But I am sure many of you would realize it if the roles were reversed.

[Essence_Smith]

ES, I appreciate your more thought out response. I do think there is something wrong with someone I do not know telling me how I should act so I am more pleasing to him/the world. I do not owe anyone a response. Am I saying you are a bad person if you talk to women on the street? No, but I am saying your behavior might not be as appreciated as you think to some women. It is situational of course, as is everything.

I know it must be hard for men to realize that not everyone of their well intentioned compliments or conversation starters is appreciated. But I am sure many of you would realize it if the roles were reversed.

I get it, believe me I do...my older step daughter who's 20 is good at ignoring people in general, but my other one is 16 and the other day told me some guy grabbed her by the arm demanding her number...not cool for any female to have to deal with even in the more mild forms. I didn't mean to defend anyone and I get that not every woman should be expected to tolerate or deal with the attention a lot of them get, especially here in NY where I think it's probably 10 times worse than anywhere else. I DO think that compliments are ok in certain situations in certain settings and if a woman gives any indication that the attention is unwanted guys need to respect it and move on politely. I have given MANY women polite sincere compliments and the majority have responded well to it, in the case that they didn't I wished them a good day and kept it moving...

I am curious to know and you don't have to answer...under what circumstances would a gentleman who you don't know be able to approach you?

[Hype]

There's a massive difference between a neighbourly smile/nod + greeting and speaking in an entitled way to someone about how they're behaving. If you're on a path in a park walking a dog or jogging or whatever, and someone coming toward you smiles and nods, you can respond, or not, as the case may be, and neither party should think anything of it. That's miles away from that same person (regardless of sex) saying "Smile! It's prettier!" or any kind of comment about your appearance or behaviour... I fully expect to be able to, e.g., go out in shabby clothes, or nice clothes, or whatever, to the corner store without any kind of criticism from random people, but I suspect for many women, this isn't even possible. But why should that be the case? Because men like women and what they look like? No shit... but this isn't about admiring a good looking person in a polite way, this is about having one's personal space (mental space) intruded upon, and the fact that women who don't like being constant targets are finally speaking up about it.

ES noted, interestingly, that the advice he gives his girls isn't moral, but pragmatic, and it places a burden on women that people are finally starting to recognize isn't equal or fair. Believing that doesn't mean one hates men, and I don't think it goes too far. It's not going to stop men from being able to find mates, or vice versa.

[kv]

I didn't expect much from the people who post here because while I'm sure you are all good people and respectful in your daily life, many of you are older men who, as AS said, are of a different generation who probably grew up with a different set of attitudes towards gender and women. I get it.

ouch

[SR]

Next up.....Watson on ageism

[Essence_Smith]

I didn't expect much from the people who post here because while I'm sure you are all good people and respectful in your daily life, many of you are older men who, as AS said, are of a different generation who probably grew up with a different set of attitudes towards gender and women. I get it.

ouch

Quiet down, ya old bastard...

Next up.....Watson on ageism

You started all of this...

[wally]

I didn't expect much from the people who post here because while I'm sure you are all good people and respectful in your daily life, many of you are older men who, as AS said, are of a different generation who probably grew up with a different set of attitudes towards gender and women. I get it.

But it is still frustrating that my experiences as a 20-something female are immediately invalidated and dismissed by older men who don't have to deal with these situations every time they walk outside. It says a lot about why women like me are angry and need feminism.

Wally, thank you for assuming I must be someone you wouldn't want in your neighborhood because I don't like it when a random guy addresses me and tells me how to act. This was a stranger in a place I do not live so I am totally in the wrong for not reacting kindly to his advice about how I should be walking down the street. And yes, I tell all my neighbors to go fuck themselves when they say hi to me and talk to me. It's totally the same! I'm a fucking man hater!

ES, I appreciate your more thought out response. I do think there is something wrong with someone I do not know telling me how I should act so I am more pleasing to him/the world. I do not owe anyone a response. Am I saying you are a bad person if you talk to women on the street? No, but I am saying your behavior might not be as appreciated as you think to some women. It is situational of course, as is everything.

I know it must be hard for men to realize that not everyone of their well intentioned compliments or conversation starters is appreciated. But I am sure many of you would realize it if the roles were reversed.

so agesim is cool, but sexism, not so much. got it.

[SR]

I didn't expect much from the people who post here because while I'm sure you are all good people and respectful in your daily life, many of you are older men who, as AS said, are of a different generation who probably grew up with a different set of attitudes towards gender and women. I get it.

ouch

Quiet down, ya old bastard...

Next up.....Watson on ageism

You started all of this...

No, I was just surprised that fg is making such broad assumptions and rich generalizations.

[Hype]

Pretty sure I said the thing about a generation-gap first, and it's not ageism if it's not discriminatory... It was a claim about the changes in social norms since the Women's Lib movement started gaining steam in the 70s (when many of you guys were either born, or just starting to go to school). It's got nothing to do with being "old" and therefore failing to grasp a fact, it's got to do with how norms change. Our grandparents could either remember the Victorian era or their parents could, they liked Pat Boone... They were probably in favour of Apartheid.... And their kids were by comparison far more liberal... why would that have changed?

[Essence_Smith]

No, I was just surprised that fg is making such broad assumptions and rich generalizations.

I said it from the beginning that this is where these discussions can commonly go...and unfortunately good intentions don't mean a thing if we don't understand one another a little better in the end. If it's any help, I don't expect much from you older men either...

[farrellgirl99]

Pretty sure I said the thing about a generation-gap first, and it's not ageism if it's not discriminatory... It was a claim about the changes in social norms since the Women's Lib movement started gaining steam in the 70s (when many of you guys were either born, or just starting to go to school). It's got nothing to do with being "old" and therefore failing to grasp a fact, it's got to do with how norms change. Our grandparents could either remember the Victorian era or their parents could, they liked Pat Boone... They were probably in favour of Apartheid.... And their kids were by comparison far more liberal... why would that have changed?

Thanks AS, this is what I meant. I am not the best at explaining myself at times, and therefore usually avoid talking about larger, more complicated topics on here as I often get too passionate and make mistakes in my language/terminology.

But I am glad in my 10+ paragraphs in this thread, people seem to be most upset that I called them old and not about anything I said about sexism/street harassment/gender norms and differences etc

Edit: SR, you know I love you and admire your opinions and willingness to learn more about these issues, etc based on previous threads and exchanges (and even the fact you created this thread). I did not mean to generalize, simply was referring to generational differences, and other exchanges I have experienced on this board (and in this thread)

[kv]

generalizations that assumes people can't change from their upbringing or evolve through the years

[SR]

Next up, Watson's view on gross generalizations on generations.

I'm old enough to have seen up close a very wide variety of relationships in the 70's until now. I come from a family where the father provided and the woman was expected to stay at home. Some friends patents shared this arrangement, others were interracial, others were swingers, others with the woman as the breadwinner. Additionally, through those years I have witnessed the woman's liberation movement from its militant stance to where it is now. Personally, it has made me more sensitive to the movement rather than more conservative (that is to conserve the past). So whatever fact you refer to has been lost on me and many many people of my age I know personally, professionally, or from afar through essays and letters alike.