The word "yid" and English football.

[Larry B.]

The English Football Association has released a statement saying that any usage of the word "yid" will be subject to prosecution. This, under their ongoing campaign to kick racism out of football.

There is one team from North London, Tottenham, who've been historically associated to the Jewish community of the area. In the olden days, they were insulted by their rivals by making references to the WW2 and calling them "yids". In time, some Tottenham supporters took the term as their own and started calling themselves "The Yid Army".

While I haven't seen it myself, it has been known that in some matches, Tottenham's rival's supporters have been making hissing sounds (as a reference to the gas chambers) and performing chants related to Judaism ("we've got foreskins, how about you?")

On a related note, during the last couple of seasons there have been notorious cases of a player calling another one a "black cunt" and another player saying "I don't speak to blacks", which resulted in mild suspensions.

Since the FA (supposedly) wants to stop all this, they've said that in order to avoid any confusion regarding the context, "yid" just shouldn't be used anymore, by anyone.

Now, I think it's a very stupid statement and a very silly idea in general. What they should do is apply extensive bans to supporters who join in the hissing, those who make references to the holocaust, etc. But I can't understand why, when people in conversation can say "those dirty scousers" to refer somewhat offensively to Liverpool supporters or players, people can't say "those dirty yids". I know it may sound a bit strange at first, but if you think about it, in that context it has all of his WW2-related context extracted from it. "You dirty yid" basically means "I dislike your team, Tottenham supporter", not "I hate Jewish people."

And even worse, they are suggesting that not even Tottenham supporters can call themselves that now. In Argentina, long time ago the Newell's supporters were being referred to as "the leppers", and they took great offense. After 10 or 20 years, they took that name and today it is basically the official nickname of the supporters. Now the English FA is trying to forbid their own fans from taking that once offensive term as a symbol for anti-discrimination.

I been reading that the origin of this is the abuse they've received in some parts of Europe when they go play there in international competitions. But surely everyone can see the difference between the word "yid" being thrown around as part of some banter ("we'll beat you, scousers!" "not if we beat you first, yids!") and some fuckwits in Ukraine saying "kill those yids" while throwing stones at some innocent Tottenham fans walking down the street. I mean, you could place a global ban in the word "yid" and that shit will still happen.

I've been talking about this with a few Jewish and non-Jewish people and there is almost a universal agreement that it was a very stupid decision and statement. However, some people said that "yid" should be out of bounds only for those who're not Tottenham supporters (similarly to the n-word, such stupid case that I can't even write a word without possibly being banned from this or any other forum), because everyone else's use is antisemitic.

Since some times this community can strangely provide some interesting insight into the most complex subjects, I turn to you. What do you think of this?

[Hype]

Uh... Larry... 'Yid' is the Jewish equivalent of 'Nigger'... It comes from Russian, "Zhydov" or "Zhyd". There's a historical context attached to it that can't be separated. See, e.g., http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/w ... 17182.html

Scousers haven't been treated inhumanely as a group for a thousand years in Europe, either. The fact that you can't understand the difference between the two terms is just a testament to your lack of knowledge (also your continued, confusing, focusing on Jews...)

[Larry B.]

Alright. Anybody else, who actually touches on the subject I'm talking about, and who doesn't provide wrong information regarding the origin of the word?

[Hype]

Alright. Anybody else, who actually touches on the subject I'm talking about, and who doesn't provide wrong information regarding the origin of the word?

The origin of the word IS the subject. The word means what it means because it has a usage history. If you want a word that doesn't have that usage history, coin a new one, like, say, whatever it was that followers of Pinochet called the people he was murdering.

http://orwell.ru/library/articles/antis ... sh/e_antib

[Larry B.]

Alright. Anybody else, who actually touches on the subject I'm talking about, and who doesn't provide wrong information regarding the origin of the word?

[Hype]

[Larry B.]

Firstly, information is freely available on the web, fortunately. 'Yid' doesn't come from that Russian term. You can repeat it all you want, but it won't make it true.

Secondly, language isn't static, is it? A section of the black community in the US will not start calling themselves literally n-words. They will keep using nigger no matter what the fuck everyone else says, because they're not going to take that word away from them. So, the subject of my post (partially) deals with the authority the FA or any organization (governmental or otherwise) has to tell people "don't use the word "yid", lest we arrest you/ban you from stadiums/fine you, no exceptions allowed."

As per the FA regulations, with which you seem to agree, you would be punished for saying nigger in a conversation, like the one we are having right now. I would be punished as well, even though neither of us is remotely discriminatory towards black people.



Quite relevant.

In Chile, socialists and communists were/are pejoratively called rojos (reds). Of course, many socialists and communists have taken the term and might define themselves as "extremely red" or whatever. If we want to stop political division in our country, what are we going to do? Ban the word "red"? Or will the Britons ban the word "Brit" because that's how the invaders from Papua-New Guinea referred to them when they were at war? Fuck no. And if we/they do, we/they are fucking idiots.

But thank you for driving this topic to an area that you feel more comfortable with: taking a defensive and aggressive stand whenever discrimination against Jewish people is even tangentially mentioned, even if the one who posts it makes it clear that the topic has nothing to do with defending antisemitism and discrimination in general AND makes it clear that his point of view is that discrimination should be eradicated.

I'll make sure to write all US senators to let them know that they should ban the word nigger, effective immediately, for the protection of the black community.

It makes no fucking sense, you idiot.

[Larry B.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24057423

[kv]

are we really on this road again larry? really?

[Larry B.]

Since some times this community can strangely provide some interesting insight into the most complex subjects, I turn to you. What do you think of this?

What an idiot this guy is.

[kv]

yaya i get it but you do know this is like larry jew post #37 right?

[Larry B.]

yaya i get it but you do know this is like larry jew post #37 right?

Well, I've also posted thousands of comments about cock, but not many people here think I'm gay.

btw, some Jewish people don't like the word "Jew". Today, a guy told me he has no problem with "yid" but severely dislikes "Jew". Also, Hype says that "yid" is basically the equivalent of "nigger"; I would have thought "kike" was worse. I still remember when Michael Jackson released They Don't Care About Us, a song against fucking discrimination and in one of the verses he sang "Jew me, sue me, everybody do me, kick me, kike me, don't ya black-or-white me." OBVIOUSLY, not hinting he was a huge antisemite, but singing AGAINST discrimination, just like with the verse "In the suite, on the news, everybody dog food, black male, black mail, throw your brother in jail." People made a huge fuss about it and Michael ended up having to censor even the word "Jew." Think of that, you can't say "Jew". How is that gonna be ok? Or better said, why is that ok?

I'm just interested in these sort of things. God damn it. Can't a person be curious anymore?

[kv]

you've had wishy washy views on this before though so it's probably wise to leave it be...but hey do you man

[Pandemonium]

If you want a word that doesn't have that usage history, coin a new one, like, say, whatever it was that followers of Pinochet called the people he was murdering.

Steenkin' Commies.

[Bandit72]

In the 70's and 80's over here, pretty much every derogatory or now 'racist' term was widely used, even out of football, like on television for example. Most people never batted an eyelid. It's only really in the last 20 years that such language has been banished from public conversation. "Yids" has always been common place when talking about Spurs, even amongst their own fans. But, I agree, that doesn't make it correct. It did get a bit ludicrous in the 90's when in schools, it was put in place that you couldn't use the word 'black board' when talking about, erm, a blackboard.



It was now a "chalkboard" or now, they are "whiteboards"

Larry, have you seen the film Scum? That gives you a very realistic representation as to what language was like in 70's/80's United Kingdom. If you are not easily offended, it is a great film, set in a UK borstal.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079871/

[Larry B.]

Larry, have you seen the film Scum? That gives you a very realistic representation as to what language was like in 70's/80's United Kingdom. If you are not easily offended, it is a great film, set in a UK borstal.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079871/

Thanks! I will watch it this weekend

[Bandit72]

Larry, have you seen the film Scum? That gives you a very realistic representation as to what language was like in 70's/80's United Kingdom. If you are not easily offended, it is a great film, set in a UK borstal.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079871/

Thanks! I will watch it this weekend

For us "limeys" it's a very quotable film.

[Larry B.]

[clickie]

One term over here in the states that I noticed is being phased out as of recent is "master bedroom". You guys mightve already been aware, but most realtors and homebuilders have stopped using the term because of the connotation problem regarding gender and race (slave master).

I guess from now on the description more often used is either "owners suite" or "owners bedroom".


I saw 'Scum' for the 1st time a couple yrs ago thought it was excellent . Liked 'Made in Britain' a lot too.

[Pandemonium]

One term over here in the states that I noticed is being phased out as of recent is "master bedroom". You guys mightve already been aware, but most realtors and homebuilders have stopped using the term because of the connotation problem regarding gender and race (slave master).

I guess from now on the description more often used is either "owners suite" or "owners bedroom".

[Hype]

As per the FA regulations, with which you seem to agree, you would be punished for saying nigger in a conversation, like the one we are having right now. I would be punished as well, even though neither of us is remotely discriminatory towards black people.

If that were true, I would agree that it is a stupid regulation, since it fails to recognize the use/mention distinction. That is to say, fairly obviously, a mere mention of a word is not a use of it. Everyone can understand the difference between one football player saying to another: "Hey, did you hear they banned word 'x'?" and "Hey, you x, I kill you!"

Notice how, as you did above, the first case is inside single-quotation marks... that's another way to tell.

But I doubt the rule actually says that you can't mention a word.

[Larry B.]

As per the FA regulations, with which you seem to agree, you would be punished for saying nigger in a conversation, like the one we are having right now. I would be punished as well, even though neither of us is remotely discriminatory towards black people.

If that were true, I would agree that it is a stupid regulation, since it fails to recognize the use/mention distinction. That is to say, fairly obviously, a mere mention of a word is not a use of it. Everyone can understand the difference between one football player saying to another: "Hey, did you hear they banned word 'x'?" and "Hey, you x, I kill you!"

Notice how, as you did above, the first case is inside single-quotation marks... that's another way to tell.

But I doubt the rule actually says that you can't mention a word.

That has been my point all along.

Here are a couple of extracts of the statement (http://www.thefa.com/news/governance/eq ... -on-y-word) [underscores not in the original]

The term ‘Yid’

Although the term derives from the Yiddish word for a Jew, its use in the English language has been, both historically and in contemporary use, derogatory and offensive.

It is noted that many minority communities have sought to reclaim historic terms of abuse such as this as a means of empowerment. The process of empowerment through reclaiming language is complex and can often divide opinion within the same community.

In light of the historic and contemporary use of the term, The FA considers that the use of the term ‘Yid’ is likely to be considered offensive by the reasonable observer.

Use of the term by football fans

The FA is aware that there are sections of fans at certain clubs who describe themselves using the term, or variants of the term, ‘Yid’. Those fans claim that use of the term is a ‘badge of honour’ and is not intended to be offensive.

Nevertheless, its use is still liable to cause offence to others, whether Jewish or not.

Also, by using the term in this manner, fans may be clouding the issue by making it harder to differentiate its use by these fans and by those who use the term in an intentionally offensive manner.

Further, use of the term in a public setting could amount to a criminal offence, and leave those fans liable to prosecution and potentially a lengthy Football Banning Order

So, can we agree that the statement is stupid?

[Hype]

No.

[Larry B.]

No.

Of course. That would go against your very own personality, wouldn't it? Agreeing with someone who is intellectually inferior...

[Hype]

No.

Of course. That would go against your very own personality, wouldn't it? Agreeing with someone who is intellectually inferior...

No. But it does go against reason itself to agree to something I can see is plainly false. You thought I was saying something that agreed with you, then you provided examples that you thought backed that up, but they do not. I am too tired at the moment to explain why, but suffice it to say, I don't think you understood what I meant by 'use/mention'. Maybe this will help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80% ... istinction

Your examples are all just different uses. But mentions aren't uses. Therefore I can't agree.