Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

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SR
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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#51 Post by SR » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:40 am

Essence_Smith wrote:
SR wrote:
:confused:
:lol:
Jasper wrote:
Essence_Smith wrote:
Jasper wrote:Aaaaaaand ES gives his stamp of DISAPPROVAL :essence: to yet another topic of discussion.
It was a joke, ya dork...pretty sure I've actually had a glass of wine or two with Artemis in my time...don't you have some almond milk to drink or something?
What I wrote was a joke too, you dope. You'd know that if you were paying attention, but that might be tricky for you between sipping Yahoo and perusing the latest issue of Spider-man with pro wrestling blaring in the background. :lol:
On topic this whole issue is definitely interesting and all but completely predictable imo...as for Snowden I wonder if the ends always justify the means...I'm sure thought was given to the consequences he would face and I do feel if one is in his position and feels the need to say something then fine, but again, did the end justify the means in this? What would have been a better way to go about it?
:hs: :lol: You directed me to the page on wine/beverages.....I thought you were saying go back to what you know. :nod:

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Essence_Smith
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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#52 Post by Essence_Smith » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:30 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
I wonder if the ends always justify the means..
Probably not. I think the only people who ACTUALLY think that are utilitarians, where the end of a moral action is always some kind of net gain in happiness or net reduction in suffering.

The most obvious counterexamples to this are arguments against torture as a method of interrogation, even though there are cases where torture has led to a good outcome (such as, perhaps, the famous case of Khalid Sheik Mohammed).

I don't have a clear take on the morality of Snowden's actions, but I do know that philosopher Peter Ludlow (whom I had the pleasure of interacting with for a year when he was at Toronto) has supported him: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... emic-evil/
In broad terms, commentators in the mainstream and corporate media have tended to assume that all of these actors needed to be brought to justice, while independent players on the Internet and elsewhere have been much more supportive. Tellingly, a recent Time magazine cover story has pointed out a marked generational difference in how people view these matters: 70 percent of those age 18 to 34 sampled in a poll said they believed that Snowden “did a good thing” in leaking the news of the National Security Agency’s surveillance program.

So has the younger generation lost its moral compass?

No. In my view, just the opposite.
I'm not sure he did a "good" thing either...I think the mistake that people make is they look at intent and make it somehow nullify the actual effects of the actions that are taken. Imo a lot of time the results are more important than one's intent. Slippery slope I know, but too often those with seemingly good intentions do more harm than good. Time will tell on this one, but in the end did he really achieve anything? This is also why I ask could he have went about putting this information out there in different way that would have been "better"? I look at what he did as telling us something we should already know in a lot of ways...

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Hype
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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#53 Post by Hype » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:43 pm

One thing you could do to try to get a better sense of this case is to look at historical "whistleblowers" and the short- and long-term outcomes of those. That is, look at cases where the media, the government, etc., label a citizen in that way, when that citizen takes it upon themselves to defy protocol, steal, or release information. This is not, by the way, the same as treason/spying, though it might be that in some cases the outcomes are similar (you'd have to look at the cases to figure that out).

Here's a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_whistleblowers

Most famously, perhaps, you get Watergate and the Pentagon Papers. But also Serpico! (Of course, the latter is not National/the former are not International in scope... but the question is still the same: does an individual's moral intent in defying authority to release previously classified/secret/otherwise hidden information publicly have a tendency to end up better or worse for a group of people whom authorities have claimed such defiance would be bad/dangerous/etc?)

True, those are cherry-picked, and we might want to say that individual cases are not always comparable (if comparable at all). But if the question is: do well-meaning intentions, which lead to a defiance of authority, more often than not lead to more harm than good? Then we could simply count up the documented cases and decide that way, or, determine what criteria made some cases turn out positively, and then try to determine if Snowden's case fits that.

I honestly don't have an answer or clear opinion, but given the above, I don't think it's impossible that this case could end up being a good thing in the end.

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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#54 Post by creep » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:03 pm

did jasper run chaos out of here with his internet bullying? jasper is mean. :nyrexall:

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Hype
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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#55 Post by Hype » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:05 pm

Seems like Snowden's turning out to be a good guy after all.

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krakle
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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#56 Post by krakle » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:39 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:Seems like Snowden's turning out to be a good guy after all.
I'm very happy with him. We need to be informed on these things.

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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#57 Post by Essence_Smith » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:49 pm

I guess in my naive way, I thought people were naturally distrusting enough of our government to already have a sense of these kinds of practices going on...If you're acquainted with the history of this country none of the things Snowden exposed should be surprising imo. I'm not saying its right I'm just saying :ns:

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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#58 Post by krakle » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:17 am

Essence_Smith wrote:I guess in my naive way, I thought people were naturally distrusting enough of our government to already have a sense of these kinds of practices going on...If you're acquainted with the history of this country none of the things Snowden exposed should be surprising imo. I'm not saying its right I'm just saying :ns:
Not surprising, no. That´s why it´s good it´s out there, publicly. And why it´s bad he´s accused of posing a threat to national security. It IS the government and the secret services that are posing a threat to civilised society. A sensible person could sense these kinds of practices are going on, so there's no way he could actually pose a threat to anything with that kind of information. If he´s locked away forever, people will be afraid to play the role of opposition that is necessary in a functioning democratic society.

When the government seizes control of the public/opposition, you'll end up like North Korea, where opposition or even suspicions of opinions will get you wiped out.
Think that's too far-streched? Just realise your government IS actually holding and torturing prisoners without any kind of legal process in secret camps around the world.

It's only democratic duty to scrutinize all authority's actions.

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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#59 Post by Jasper » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:48 pm

Judge: NSA spying ‘almost Orwellian,’ likely unconstitutional

In a stinging rebuke to President Barack Obama’s surveillance policies, a federal judge on Monday branded the National Security Agency’s mass collection of Americans’ telephone data “almost Orwellian” and likely a violation of the Constitution. Former NSA contractor Edward Snowden cheered the ruling.

Appeals Court Judge Richard Leon invoked Founding Father James Madison and the Beatles in a frequently scathing ruling. Leon, appointed by then-President George W. Bush, ordered the government to halt bulk collection of so-called telephony metadata and destroy information already collected through that program. But he suspended his order as the case works its way through the courts.

“I cannot imagine a more ‘indiscriminate’ and ‘abitrary invasion’ than this systematic and high-tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every single citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval,” Leon wrote.

The judge also dealt a blow to the government’s argument that such surveillance programs — a source of controversy ever since Snowden revealed their reach in a series of unauthorized disclosures — are necessary to thwarting terrorist plots.

“The Government does not cite a single instance in which analysis of the NSA’s bulk metadata collection actually stopped an imminent attack, or otherwise aided the Government in achieving any objective that was time-sensitive in nature,” he wrote.

Leon said Founding Father James Madison would likely be “aghast” at the NSA’s activities — but also conjured up a Beatles-themed image to rebut the government’s suggestion that it does not collect Verizon metadata.

“To draw an analogy, if the NSA’s program operates the way the Government suggests it does, then omitting Verizon Wireless, AT&T, and Sprint from the collection would be like omitting John, Paul, and George from a historical analysis of the Beatles. A Ringo-only database doesn’t make any sense, and I cannot believe the Government would create, maintain, and so ardently defend such a system,” he wrote in footnote 36 on page 38.

Among Leon’s other flourishes, he warned that the so-called war on terrorism “realistically could be forever!” He expressed concerns about the “almost Orwellian technology that enables the Government to store and analyze the phone metadata of every telephone user in the United States.” And he said modern-day surveillance tactics would have been “the stuff of science fiction” at the time a precedent ruling was issued.

The White House had no immediate response to the ruling.

But Snowden, in a statement distributed by independent journalist Glenn Greenwald, cheered.

"I acted on my belief that the NSA's mass surveillance programs would not withstand a constitutional challenge, and that the American public deserved a chance to see these issues determined by open courts," Snowden said. "Today, a secret program authorized by a secret court was, when exposed to the light of day, found to violate Americans' rights. It is the first of many."
http://news.yahoo.com/judge--nsa-spying ... 01613.html

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krakle
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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#60 Post by krakle » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:14 am


Former whistleblowers: open letter to intelligence employees after Snowden
Blowing the whistle on powerful factions is not a fun thing to do, but it is the last avenue for truth, balanced debate and democracy


At least since the aftermath of September 2001, western governments and intelligence agencies have been hard at work expanding the scope of their own power, while eroding privacy, civil liberties and public control of policy. What used to be viewed as paranoid, Orwellian, tin-foil hat fantasies turned out post-Snowden, to be not even the whole story.

What's really remarkable is that we've been warned for years that these things were going on: wholesale surveillance of entire populations, militarization of the internet, the end of privacy. All is done in the name of "national security", which has more or less become a chant to fence off debate and make sure governments aren't held to account – that they can't be held to account – because everything is being done in the dark. Secret laws, secret interpretations of secret laws by secret courts and no effective parliamentary oversight whatsoever.

By and large the media have paid scant attention to this, even as more and more courageous, principled whistleblowers stepped forward. The unprecedented persecution of truth-tellers, initiated by the Bush administration and severely accelerated by the Obama administration, has been mostly ignored, while record numbers of well-meaning people are charged with serious felonies simply for letting their fellow citizens know what's going on.

It's one of the bitter ironies of our time that while John Kiriakou (ex-CIA) is in prison for blowing the whistle on US torture, the torturers and their enablers walk free.

Likewise WikiLeaks-source Chelsea (née Bradley) Manning was charged with – amongst other serious crimes – aiding the enemy (read: the public). Manning was sentenced to 35 years in prison while the people who planned the illegal and disastrous war on Iraq in 2003 are still treated as dignitaries.

Numerous ex-NSA officials have come forward in the past decade, disclosing massive fraud, vast illegalities and abuse of power in said agency, including Thomas Drake, William Binney and Kirk Wiebe. The response was 100% persecution and 0% accountability by both the NSA and the rest of government. Blowing the whistle on powerful factions is not a fun thing to do, but despite the poor track record of western media, whistleblowing remains the last avenue for truth, balanced debate and upholding democracy – that fragile construct which Winston Churchill is quoted as calling "the worst form of government, except all the others".

Since the summer of 2013, the public has witnessed a shift in debate over these matters. The reason is that one courageous person: Edward Snowden. He not only blew the whistle on the litany of government abuses but made sure to supply an avalanche of supporting documents to a few trustworthy journalists. The echoes of his actions are still heard around the world – and there are still many revelations to come.

For every Daniel Ellsberg, Drake, Binney, Katharine Gun, Manning or Snowden, there are thousands of civil servants who go by their daily job of spying on everybody and feeding cooked or even made-up information to the public and parliament, destroying everything we as a society pretend to care about.
Some of them may feel favourable towards what they're doing, but many of them are able to hear their inner Jiminy Cricket over the voices of their leaders and crooked politicians – and of the people whose intimate communication they're tapping.

Hidden away in offices of various government departments, intelligence agencies, police forces and armed forces are dozens and dozens of people who are very much upset by what our societies are turning into: at the very least, turnkey tyrannies.

One of them is you.

You're thinking:

● Undermining democracy and eroding civil liberties isn't put explicitly in your job contract.
● You grew up in a democratic society and want to keep it that way
● You were taught to respect ordinary people's right to live a life in privacy
● You don't really want a system of institutionalized strategic surveillance that would make the dreaded Stasi green with envy – do you?

Still, why bother? What can one person do? Well, Edward Snowden just showed you what one person can do. He stands out as a whistleblower both because of the severity of the crimes and misconduct that he is divulging to the public – and the sheer amount of evidence he has presented us with so far – more is coming. But Snowden shouldn't have to stand alone, and his revelations shouldn't be the only ones.

You can be part of the solution; provide trustworthy journalists – either from old media (like this newspaper) or from new media (such as WikiLeaks) with documents that prove what illegal, immoral, wasteful activites are going on where you work.

There IS strength in numbers. You won't be the first – nor the last – to follow your conscience and let us know what's being done in our names. Truth is coming – it can't be stopped. Crooked politicians will be held accountable. It's in your hands to be on the right side of history and accelerate the process.

Courage is contagious.

Signed by:

Peter Kofod, ex-Human Shield in Iraq (Denmark)
Thomas Drake, whistleblower, former senior executive of the NSA (US)
Daniel Ellsberg, whistleblower, former US military analyst (US)
Katharine Gun, whistleblower, former GCHQ (UK)
Jesselyn Radack, whistleblower, former Department of Justice (US)
Ray McGovern, former senior CIA analyst (US)
Coleen Rowley, whistleblower, former FBI agent (US)
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... evelations

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Pandemonium
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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#61 Post by Pandemonium » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:40 pm

I wish a few whistle blowers from Apple, Google and other major companies would come forward. It's not just the government(s) that are subverting the Constitution and other basic human rights to privacy.

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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#62 Post by Larry B. » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:01 am

I don't know where to post this... but I can confirm from a first-hard source that for Intel, a medium-sized deployment of surveillance for A RESTAURANT includes up to 100 cameras.

If I ever saw more than 2 surveillance cameras inside a restaurant, I'd be very uncomfortable. A hundred??

(fyi, a large deployment includes up to 1,000 cameras, targeted for chains that have multiple locations.)

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Pandemonium
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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#63 Post by Pandemonium » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:38 am

Larry B. wrote:I don't know where to post this... but I can confirm from a first-hard source that for Intel, a medium-sized deployment of surveillance for A RESTAURANT includes up to 100 cameras.

If I ever saw more than 2 surveillance cameras inside a restaurant, I'd be very uncomfortable. A hundred??

(fyi, a large deployment includes up to 1,000 cameras, targeted for chains that have multiple locations.)
"First-hard source?" That sounds pornographic.

That's way out of proportion for any similar place I know of locally here in CA. A decent size 200+ capacity restaurant like California Pizza Kitchen or Lazy Dog has about 15 - 25 cameras tops for the entire interior and exterior property tied into a security room setup of about 9 - 12 monitors rotating views between all cameras. I don't even think a large mall has more than 100 - 150 cameras tops to cover interior (not including inside individual stores), outside and parking structures. The quality of cameras and the area they can cover determines these numbers. You'll find the most cameras per sq foot in Casinos for understandable reasons.

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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#64 Post by Larry B. » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:48 am

Oh, and also:
9-11 Hijackers Passports were issued by the CIA - US Consulate Whistleblower Michael Springmann


"In Saudi Arabia I was repeatedly ordered by high level State Dept officials to issue visas to unqualified applicants. These were, essentially, people who had no ties either to Saudi Arabia or to their own country. I complained bitterly at the time there. I returned to the US, I complained to the State Dept here, to the General Accounting Office, to the Bureau of Diplomatic Security and to the Inspector General's office. I was met with silence." - Springmann


http://www.minds.com/blog/view/75437/9- ... springmann

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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#65 Post by creep » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:27 pm

Larry B. wrote:Oh, and also:
9-11 Hijackers Passports were issued by the CIA - US Consulate Whistleblower Michael Springmann


"In Saudi Arabia I was repeatedly ordered by high level State Dept officials to issue visas to unqualified applicants. These were, essentially, people who had no ties either to Saudi Arabia or to their own country. I complained bitterly at the time there. I returned to the US, I complained to the State Dept here, to the General Accounting Office, to the Bureau of Diplomatic Security and to the Inspector General's office. I was met with silence." - Springmann


http://www.minds.com/blog/view/75437/9- ... springmann
oh larry. please stop with the wacky conspiracy theories.

this guy didn't even work for the visa bureau during 911. it was ten years later that they were issued visas. :dunce:
Michael J. Springmann was the former head of the American visa bureau in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, in the Reagan and former Bush administrations, from September 1987 through March 1989.
do you just assume because he was ordered to issue visa's by the state department that the 911 hijackers were too by someone else?

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Larry B.
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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#66 Post by Larry B. » Thu May 29, 2014 7:10 am



Published today.

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Bandit72
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Re: Prism: Web Spying Whistleblower Goes Public

#67 Post by Bandit72 » Thu May 29, 2014 7:35 am

Very interesting.

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