Parents make girl's punishment humiliating and public

[chaos]

They got the idea from a Christian counselor.

The parents didn't know what to do when their thirteen year old daughter starting acting out after the death of her uncle.

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/parent ... 17447.html

Parents Force Girl to Hold Sign as Punishment for Being Disrespectful. Tough Love or Too Much?
By Lylah M. Alphonse, Senior Editor, Yahoo! Shine | Parenting – 3 hours ago



Worried about their 13-year-old daughter's increasingly disrespectful behavior, Gentry and Renee Nickell of Crestview, Florida, decided to make her punishment humiliating and public. On Saturday, the teen (whose name has not been released) spent 90 minutes standing at a busy intersection with a hand-written sign describing her sins.

It read: "I’m a self-entitled teenager w/no respect for authority. I’m also super smart, yet I have 3 'D’s' because I DON’T CARE."

Passing motorists saw the teen, who was standing with her dad at the corner of Ferdon Boulevard and U.S. Highway 90 in Crestview, and snapped pictures of her with their cell phones. Some of the photos ended up on Facebook, where they were shared within the Crestview community (the Nickells said that they have not seen those photos; Yahoo! Shine was not able to find them online). Someone called the police, who showed up to talk to the teen and left after deciding that she was "aware of her punishment and she was not in any harm," Crestview police records show.

Now, however, the parents are feeling a little public humiliation of their own.

“I wasn’t even thinking about what the public was going to think,” her mom, Renee Nickell told the Northwest Florida Daily News. “I was thinking about our daughter. It was for her to be in the public and recognize what she had done wrong."

"We spend so much focus on not wanting to hurt a child's self esteem that we don't do anything," the Nickells said in a statement defending the punishment.

"Walk a mile in someone's shoes," the statement read. "We must undo at home what the world tries to tell her is better."

Renee Nickell told the Northwest Florida Daily News that the family has had a hard time since Renee's brother was killed in Afghanistan in December 2011. Her kids were close to him and his family, she explained, even taking vacations together. Since losing her uncle, Renee's 13-year-old has become more defiant at home and at school, and her grades have dropped.

"We just felt like she just kind of gave up," Renee told the newspaper. The family did not say whether they sought grief counseling for their daughter after her uncle's death, or whether they thought her lack of interest in school was a sign of depression.

Holding a sign in public wasn't their first choice for punishment. They tried grounding her before, but it didn't help, they explained. They didn't forbid her from attending activities at church, they said, because the activities were supposed to reinforce the Christian values they were struggling to instill in her. They didn't confiscate her electronics because neither she nor their two younger children, ages 2 and 6, have any, they said.

"We just got to the point where we just didn't know what else to do," Renee told the newspaper. She said that she got the sign idea from a Christian counselor "several years ago," and decided to start with a 90-minute public punishment. The girl's dad stood next to her the whole time.

"At the end, she gave me a hug in front of the police officer and she told me she was sorry," Gentry said.

But on Tuesday the Nickells were surprised to find out that their daughter's punishment had gone viral, and were shocked by the anger leveled at them for their parenting choices.

"It makes me sad to think that this young girl had experienced such a painful loss recently and because she was acting out (as many, if not most young people do for a time) in response to that trauma, she was put on public display for her sins rather than receiving professional help/intervention," commented Katherine Rebecca Newlin. "How would her parents (or any ONE of us!?) feel if they were made to stand on a public corner with any number of THEIR sins plastered all over a sign for the world to see?"

"Worst parents ever," commented Asa Semaj of San Diego. "No one likes to be humiliated, especially a 13-year-old girl, by her own parents! 13-year-old girls have been know to kill themselves over less than this. The only thing she will learn from this is to hate her family."

While people are criticizing the Nickells for the punishment, some who saw the "self-entitled" sign say they support the the family.
"I saw her Saturday morning while running errands, and I thought to myself, great job mom and dad!" Aundy Blocker of Crestview said on Facebook. "Do everything possible to keep your child on the right track! Kudos to you!"

The Nickells likely meant to call out their kid for being "selfish," "self-centered," or "entitled" ("self-entitled" isn't a word) but even so, their message obviously got through to the teenager. They told the Northwest Florida Daily News that the girl's behavior had improved since Saturday.

“I asked her, ‘Were you scarred? Traumatized?’" Renee told the newspaper. "She said, ‘No mom, I knew it was coming'."

[Hype]

I got some Ds... I don't think it mattered (except it makes getting grant money, currently, more difficult...) Those parents are idiots.

[Larry B.]

Nothing wrong with having a couple of Ds in high-school...

[Hokahey]

The D's weren't the only problem. Grief counseling seems in order. But if she's using her uncles death as an excuse to act out then that won't help. I have no problems with her punishment assuming she wasn't responding to other methods. Parents too often coddle their children these days. It's one thing to make sure your child knows you love them unconditionally and quite another to let them get away with murder. Reading the story it seems the girl responded well to it and understood why her parents did it. That's a good sign. I can't believe someone called the police. That's the most ridiculous part of the story to me. "They're making her hold a sign!!!! Oh the humanity!!!" Judges order people, especially kids, to do similar things.

[Hype]

What if the girl had killed herself after this?

[Artemis]

I don't agree with public shaming and humiliation as a form of punishment or corrective behavior. I can't believe that the parents thought this was reasonable thing to do. If this behavior started after the uncle's death, I think it's obvious the kid was grieving and didn't know how to deal with the loss. It's hard enough being a 13 year old girl without the additional stress of lame parents who have run out of ideas.

[Hokahey]

What if the girl had killed herself after this?

What if she killed herself after any punishment? Wasn't there a case recently where a girl hung herself after losing cell-phone privileges? And the fact is, she didn't. So what's your point?

"At the end, she gave me a hug in front of the police officer and she told me she was sorry," Gentry said.

“I asked her, ‘Were you scarred? Traumatized?’" Renee told the newspaper. "She said, ‘No mom, I knew it was coming'."

Is this considerably more embarrassing than returning the piece of candy you stole to the shop owner and apologizing? I don't really think so.

I am appalled at the parenting techniques of many, many parents, both in the strictness and lack there of in their disciplinary tactics. I appreciate that as a society we've moved away or even rebelled against an approach to parenting that involves physically or emotionally abusing your child. As a victim of both, I couldn't applaud the shift any louder. But I also see terribly behaved children with parents too afraid to say or do anything. This is certainly on the other end of how I parent, but not over the line entirely depending on the severity of the behavior, other methods attempted already, etc.

[Hype]

What if the girl had killed herself after this?

What if she killed herself after any punishment? Wasn't there a case recently where a girl hung herself after losing cell-phone privileges? And the fact is, she didn't. So what's your point?

The point was to suggest implicitly that if what one cares about is producing a certain future effect (i.e., making a child behave in accordance with what is believed to be her best interests, long term), then these sorts of punishments seem fundamentally misguided, unless some causal connection between the punishment and a change in behaviour can be established, and that there are no unforseen negative consequences, and that there are no other better more effective means of producing the same desired outcome.

You seem to be of the opinion that what matters most in disciplining children is punishing them (i.e., making them suffer or in some way feel bad for what they have done). But this isn't obvious. It isn't obviously wrong either, but my point was just to note that if you're trying to produce an effect, you should probably make sure you're producing JUST that effect.

[Hokahey]

What if the girl had killed herself after this?

What if she killed herself after any punishment? Wasn't there a case recently where a girl hung herself after losing cell-phone privileges? And the fact is, she didn't. So what's your point?

The point was to suggest implicitly that if what one cares about is producing a certain future effect (i.e., making a child behave in accordance with what is believed to be her best interests, long term), then these sorts of punishments seem fundamentally misguided, unless some causal connection between the punishment and a change in behaviour can be established, and that there are no unforseen negative consequences, and that there are no other better more effective means of producing the same desired outcome.

That all goes without saying, and is true of any punishment.

You seem to be of the opinion that what matters most in disciplining children is punishing them (i.e., making them suffer or in some way feel bad for what they have done). But this isn't obvious. It isn't obviously wrong either, but my point was just to note that if you're trying to produce an effect, you should probably make sure you're producing JUST that effect.

I don't disagree with any of that, although in yet another thread you're jumping to some conclusions here. I never said the most important part of discipline is punishment. But if corrective action becomes the necessary course, then I do not see this punishment as being especially cruel or horrible. The child would probably have to lack a great deal of self-esteem and self-awareness for this to cause outright humiliation in the strongest sense of the word.

I'll add to all of this, that if you're to the point that your child is so out of control something like this seems necessary then you probably fucked up quite a bit prior to this.

But I'll also add, knowing many, many parents, I know the types that would be offended by this. Without a doubt. And their kids are not the most well behaved. Conversely, the parents I know that would say "hey, if that's what it comes down to then it's not a horrible punishment" tend to have the more well behaved children. All in my opinion of course.

[Hype]

I think we don't disagree all that much, though we might disagree about the role and function of punishment more generally (but this is a different issue I guess).

I do think this claim is a bit too strong:

I'll add to all of this, that if you're to the point that your child is so out of control something like this seems necessary then you probably fucked up quite a bit prior to this.

Couldn't there be confounding factors? (Depression, trauma, etc?)

[chaos]

When I hear of parents who resort to stringing signs around their childrens' necks as a form of punishment I think of the scene from Jane Eyre where Reverend Brocklehurst punishes Jane and Helen by having them wear signs (Jane wears "Rebellious" and Helen wears "Vain") and walk outside in circles in the cold and rain.

Brocklehurst" First vanity now insurrection. It should be rooted out."

(fast forward to 7:41)



With regard to a child acting out as a result of grief, just consider how adults respond. We have the power to isolate ourselves or do whatever we need to do in order to cope. Children do not have this option. So while it may appear that they "do not respect authority," they really just want to be left alone in order to process feelings they do not fully understand and/or know how to articulate. Also there is no set timeframe for when or how long someone will grieve.

I do not think humiliation/shame is an effective form of discipline in any situation, let alone when an adolescent may be grieving.

Is this considerably more embarrassing than returning the piece of candy you stole to the shop owner and apologizing?

That isn't the point. It is the lesson behind an act of discipline. What exactly is the purpose of having a child where a sign that states she is disrespectful/doesn't care about her grades other than the hope that this will humiliate her to the point that she will change her behavior.

[Artemis]

This public shaming trend of making kids wear signs with their "crimes" is the equivalent of medieval pillory.




The problem may be resolved in the shot term, but I think in the long run it's damaging. Damaging in the sense that it can weaken relationships with the parents and cause resentment. Personally, I think it is a form of emotional abuse.




chaos, your Jane Eyre example made me think of a former co-worker from my hotel days. there was a musical version of jane eyre that we were selling tickets for and my co-worker kept calling the show 'Jane Ear". So, being the punny person that I am, I said, "Oh, Jane Ear? Is that a lobe story? "

[Essence_Smith]

All this can be avoided by just reading Mama Rock...

I'm being a smart ass of course, but the woman did raise a bunch of kids who are successful, none of whom used drugs or got into trouble and she did it in the height of the crack era in one of the worst neighborhoods in Brooklyn...yes I've read the book...yes it actually has great advice in it...

[Hype]

She also got lucky. Some children are traumatized in various ways (child abuse is the most obvious, but there are other subtle things), or are born with genetic dispositions for mental disorders or other behavioural issues. Sometimes parents are well suited to dealing with these things, and sometimes they are in an environment that doesn't make dealing with them more difficult.

Often they may not be so lucky. I think it's really dangerous to try to generalize about parenting.

[chaos]

chaos, your Jane Eyre example made me think of a former co-worker from my hotel days. there was a musical version of jane eyre that we were selling tickets for and my co-worker kept calling the show 'Jane Ear". So, being the punny person that I am, I said, "Oh, Jane Ear? Is that a lobe story? "

I can't believe there is a Jane Eyre musical. But hey, there is a Carrie musical so why not.

[chaos]

[chaos]

where a sign

Okay, these edit deadline really need to be extended.

[SR]

where a sign

Okay, these edit deadline really need to be extended.

eliminated.....

[Hokahey]

Couldn't there be confounding factors? (Depression, trauma, etc?)

Good point, and agreed.

[Hokahey]

That isn't the point. It is the lesson behind an act of discipline. What exactly is the purpose of having a child where a sign that states she is disrespectful/doesn't care about her grades other than the hope that this will humiliate her to the point that she will change her behavior.

The grades weren't the only issue. It was her overall behavior. You seem to be approaching this as if she got a couple D's and was thrown on a street corner with a sign. This was an issue of on going poor behavior and the bad grades were a part of it.

And why do you only see the potential outcome of this as humiliation? I think an argument could be just as easily made that a sense of accountabililty may be reached by such an act. If the child has a sense of self-worth and esteem to begin with, this particular act shouldn't be soul crushing. I am a bit amazed at how brutal of a punishment some of you see this as.

She also got lucky. Some children are traumatized in various ways (child abuse is the most obvious, but there are other subtle things), or are born with genetic dispositions for mental disorders or other behavioural issues. Sometimes parents are well suited to dealing with these things, and sometimes they are in an environment that doesn't make dealing with them more difficult.

Often they may not be so lucky. I think it's really dangerous to try to generalize about parenting.

Along those lines then it can be dangerous to generalize about many things. We're having to generalize a bit for the sake of discussion. Did they "get lucky", or did they know their own child well enough to understand that this was an appropriate method for improving her behavior? If we're to believe the article and the girl's words then all ended well. Perhaps we can then surmise the parents weren't some out of control disciplinarians, flailing for answers and then perhaps getting lucky.

This public shaming trend of making kids wear signs with their "crimes" is the equivalent of medieval pillory.

And I think that's a rather extreme comparison. Both are public discipline, but one is much more physical and clearly abusive.

The problem may be resolved in the shot term, but I think in the long run it's damaging. Damaging in the sense that it can weaken relationships with the parents and cause resentment. Personally, I think it is a form of emotional abuse.

The argument could just as easily be made for any form of discipline. Is it wrong to make your child sit in time out, or god forbid - face the corner(!!!) in the presence of peers or siblings? How humiliating! Surely they will resent you forever!

That's the line of thinking I see applied by parents all the time who are then forced to pick up their kids from school for acting out. The child knows there are never real consequences. Consequences that may cause some sting. That may hurt a little. The types of consequences that you will face outside of the protective confines of your home and out amongst the real world. We ill prepare our children when we do not condition them to understand that the action of poor behavior will often result in the effect of discomfort or even embarrassment.

But - The fact that her uncle dying was likely the root cause of her behavior makes this punishment seem extreme. What caused the behavior has to be considered of course, and if it's how she's grieving then this is wrong. If it's the cumulative effect of lack of discipline over the years then I take no issue with it.

[Artemis]

Along with the pillory pic I posted, I said that I felt that public shaming and humiliation is the modern day equivalent.

The article said:

Since losing her uncle, Renee's 13-year-old has become more defiant at home and at school, and her grades have dropped.

"We just felt like she just kind of gave up," Renee told the newspaper. The family did not say whether they sought grief counseling for their daughter after her uncle's death, or whether they thought her lack of interest in school was a sign of depression.

The details are kind of vague, so we don't know the full story with this particular situation. If we are to go with what has been provided in the story, then I think absolutely the way the parents chose to handle the situation is wrong.

Anyway, if I were a parent or teacher, I would not resort to public shaming and humiliation. I don't have children but my experience with children has shown me that they respond better when treated with respect. Just as adults expect to be treated with respects, kids should be treated that way by adults too.

[chaos]

And why do you only see the potential outcome of this as humiliation? I think an argument could be just as easily made that a sense of accountabililty may be reached by such an act. If the child has a sense of self-worth and esteem to begin with, this particular act shouldn't be soul crushing. I am a bit amazed at how brutal of a punishment some of you see this as.

How is a sense of accountability going to be reached when the point of having a child wear a sign is for the child to be humiliated?

There is nothing wrong with instilling a sense of accountability/responsibility,but it needs to be done in a productive way. If you have a child return an item she has stolen, she may feel embarrassed but the point of having her return the item is to face the person she stole from, and apologize. Hopefully good behavior will be modeled on all sides and the owner of the item will not freak out and call her a little self-entitled thief. Even if the owner tells the child not to enter the store again, the child will get the point that there are not only consequences for her actions, but also that her actions affect others. It is an act of respect to face a person you have wronged and attempt to make amends. It would be ideal if the wronged person is gracious and in turn also shows some respect.

The point is not that she may feel embarrassed, the point is choosing to embarrass her as a means of discipline in and of itself. Let's say your child is suppose to come home from school and do her homework before she can go out and play, but instead she just wanders away from the school with her friends. If you were to pick her up from school and bring her home, she would probably be embarrassed since all her friends would see/know. Nevertheless, you are making the point that she needs to come home right after school, and you will bring her there until she can do it on her own (a consequence ). This is not comparable with having her stand in the street wearing a sign "I do not listen to my parents when they tell me to come straight home from school. I do not want to do my homework. I do not respect my parents rules." The point of having her do that is to put her on display in front of everyone, including strangers, to be ridiculed. A parent's choice of discipline subtly models behavior. There is nothing wrong with a parent emphasizing that a child needs to respect him/her/authority, but a parent's behavior should garner that respect.

[chaos]

Just as adults expect to be treated with respects, kids should be treated that way by adults too.

Yes, but for some reason some adults think this would be the equivalent of letting children run wild.

[Hokahey]

Just as adults expect to be treated with respects, kids should be treated that way by adults too.

Yes, but for some reason some adults think this would be the equivalent of letting children run wild.

You're viewing this in an incredibly black and white fashion. You may interpret this discipline as disrepesctful. I don't. The father stood there with her as well. There was no public ridicule. As if she was left to the townsfolk to have rotten fruit thrown at her.

Parenting is far from a black and white practice. I would guarantee my son feels as loved and respected as any kid. But he also knows not to fuck around. All I have to do is look at him and he cuts the shit. As a result, we have an absolute blast together at all times. He's doing extremely well outside of his family environment because he is aware that very real consequences will exist should he not. And when he's at home we laugh and play and he's full of kisses and hugs. I enjoy being around him when other children act out because he always looks at me with a smirk, like "get a load of this unruly idiot."

Discipline and respect are not mutually exclusive.

How is a sense of accountability going to be reached when the point of having a child wear a sign is for the child to be humiliated?

Who said that was the point? You're assuming that this punishment resulted in those feelings, and that this was the intention. That's debatable. What isn't debatable is that she was held accountable. Now, I'm sure she felt some sense of embarrassment. But if her father stood there with her and was likely kind and reassuring to her based on how she reacted. If you act up as an adult, and face legal consequences, your punishment is often public record. Your hearing is public. There is a very real liklihood you will be publicly embarrassed at some point because of your actions. Is it so wrong to begin the process of understanding you are often held accountable in a public manner, and judged by your peers for your actions?

I can't imagine ever resorting to this with my child, but the overreaction to this is pretty silly.

The girl seems to have had a positive reaction. And granted actions can have long term consequences not immediately evident, but I would be stunned if the girl had long term trauma because she stood with a sign in public one afternoon with her father.

I'll also say again - this is not an unusual punishment. Judges have people do similar things as a consequences for their actions. That doesn't necessarily make it right, but it does remove any argument that they've done something unsual here.

[Hype]