Do you believe in White Privilege?

[Essence_Smith]

This wiki entry is a pretty decent starting point for this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

I definitely believe there's a certain sense of entitlement that exists on some level...I think most are somewhat aware of it and are unapologetic. Can't say I blame them, but I think denying the concept says something...

I live in a town now that up until the late 80's early 90's was pretty much a white one...low income housing was built at that time and the residents very publicly and angrily railed against it until the federal government stepped in and made it happen. I am the only black person that resides on my block and its pretty segregated now. If you see a black person in the area (which you RARELY do), they're headed "downtown" where all the minority (poor) people live. This is not meant to about racism per se as much as about what I see as advantages had by some...Pearl Jam gets props forever for WMA...Louis CK gets it as well for his whole bit on being white...your thoughts?

[Essence_Smith]

I thought this was interesting...

[guysmiley]

I thought this was interesting...

I think that class is doing the right thing. It's a amazing to me it's that hard to accept still. I see gay rights going through the same struggle. I found out a friend finally came out of the closet at 32. So late I feel bad for him and a bit shocked. But I shouldn't be.

As far as race, well, I've been lucky. I grew up in a mixed neighborhood with a hippie mom and a bigot dad. Really it's amazing I made it out of that household. My dad hates black people. He said if I dated one he would dis-own me. Which only made me want a black girl more. But, I ended up marrying a Japanese girl and I'm still afraid he's going to flip about the race issue. But, I don't give a fuck anymore. I can now make fun of my wife's culture and she makes fun of mine and its great. I'm not worried about calling people black or Mexican, or Yellow, or shitty or slutty if that is how they have been refereed to, I'm ok with it with equal repercussions on my end. And really, what can a person call a mostly white person these days? I guess the worst I could be called is a Sand-Honky.

I believe half the hate on our president is hate because a person of color made it to the highest office, and people are pretending like it's the not the only issue to criticize everything else. Some right-wingers even claim it was strategic act on the part of the left.

I hate one thing, and it's un-justified hate. For that I have hate and a burning ember of rage for, which I will smoother it. I don't talk much to my dad these days, because of his stance and immaturity. I feel disappointed in his lack of growth as a human who has lived twice as long as me. I really wanted someone to give me advice, but instead, I feel like I have to teach him.

[guysmiley]

Oh but your question..yeah there is white guilt. In fact I asked a few years ago here about it.

I was in a hip hop/funk band with some black members. When the white people got near the black members every white member but me started talking ghetto. I thought it was weird and un-natural. As well as insulting and ingenuous.

I just never got it. Was it an effort to make them comfortable, or to be "cool"? Be who you are and accept.

[Essence_Smith]

I think feeling guilty is a reaction to what I'm referring to... the privilege thing is being privy to advantages that people of color just don't have and it exists systematically...people of color have a tougher time getting a decent, education, housing, jobs, etc even when they are supposedly equal...the rate of unemployment for a black person WITH a college education is higher than those of white people with the same degree, etc...the idea is kind of applicable all across the board. I think its something most are aware of but unwilling to talk about, or change...for the record I have never felt victimized or like I was at a serious disadvantage in life, but there are certain things that hard to ignore or make excuses about.

[Larry B.]

I don't know about white people in general, but for what I can see and read in American culture, the guilt is huge. However, and sadly, this doesn't mean that black people are treated "more equally." Americans seem to protect their White American culture. Sure, they say they embrace African American expressions, such as their music, there are black men who are huge sport heroes, they recognize MLK as an important figure... but at the end of the day, I'd say that easily 90% of white Americans would feel a little weird if their daughters started dating a black guy. They'll have excuses, of course. Most of them based on stereotypes. "He might be a gangster", "his dad was a gangster", "he'll get into fight and risk my daughetr's safety", etc.

To me, it is difficult to understand how an entire country can feel awkward by describing a person as black, when their skin IS black. You guys have created a demon out of nowhere. The Afro-descendant population in the US is quite numerous, yet they're still being denied of proper recognition as human beings. White people have, in fact, created this demon. They've said "well, we certainly fucked up a bit with the whole slavery thing. How can we make it up? I know, let's give the word 'black' a pejorative connotation and let's just call them African Americans, coloured people or pigmentally impaired people". Come on. For fucks sake.

In my opinion, white America has no idea how to deal with the black population. Their country is based on "white values", basically meaning "this land, mine. You no white, you go away. Or stay back". And they have to face the duality of the culture they live in, one that tells them "African Americans are just the same, stop racism now!" while also telling them to watch out for black folk seeking revenge. Hide yo wives, hide yo kids.

But then again, that duality is common in basically everything the US says and does, politically speaking. Republicans and democrats can talk about the advances in terms of kicking racism out, but at the end of the day THEY will use the n word, that which can't be named lest the rage of the seven pits of hell smite you with the hammer of eternal pain, THEY will refer to the cashier as "that black stupid fuck who couldn't get my change right", THEY will enjoy watching a black guy being arrested for stealing a gas station while declaring his surprise when seeing a white executive arrested for fraud or child abuse. "That's unreal, he just seemed like a normal guy". Oh, if I could have a fucking dollar every time I've hard that.

White America doesn't get it. When things are fine, you're all equal. White, black, all brothers and sisters. When something bad happens, white people will curl up and protect their culture in any way they can. They don't understand there was never a threat.

[farrellgirl99]

I think its hard to deny that white privilege exists. It's completely pervasive in our society. I know I benefit from white privilege everyday.

This is a famous essay on the subject if anyone is interested.

http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

[LJF]

I'd say people tend to take care of their own. Look back in the US history as different countries started to immigrate the last ones in were at the bottom and treated like shit. They had to work their way up. They would start at the bottom and as they started to get ahead, they would help each other. Italians helped Italians, Irish helped the Irish and so on. That has been our history.

[Pure Method]

Larry, you're right on a few things, like merit in America being based on a white created standard, which disadvantadges people outside of the white community. You are wrong, however, in asserting that white people were the ones that started using the phrase "African American" - that term's popularity is a direct result of a request by Rev. Jesse Jackson, a prominent black later, circa the late 1980s/early 1990s. I don't think it's proper for any one individual to be credited as or take credit for being (not sure where the Reverend fits in there) the leader of a single ethnic/racial group, but that's where the common usage of that term comes from.

Also, I cringe when I hear people say or invoke "white guilt." What a crock of shit. It just lazily substitutes for actual action towards understanding and confronting the still massive racial segregation and disparity for a vague emotion. For example, schools in the North are more segregated now than they were BEFORE Brown v. Board of Education.

To me, it's no different than "first world problems" or any other way people try to cope with their privilege without addressing or confronting their own complicity in the system of prejudice, discrimination, and oppression.

[Essence_Smith]

I think its hard to deny that white privilege exists. It's completely pervasive in our society. I know I benefit from white privilege everyday.

This is a famous essay on the subject if anyone is interested.

http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

I've read this essay...yes there's definitely a back pack...

I'd say people tend to take care of their own. Look back in the US history as different countries started to immigrate the last ones in were at the bottom and treated like shit. They had to work their way up. They would start at the bottom and as they started to get ahead, they would help each other. Italians helped Italians, Irish helped the Irish and so on. That has been our history.

Those ethnic groups you mention all happen to be white...
While I'm quite aware of the prejudice Italian and Irish folks went through when they got here, eventually they were assimilated into "american" culture and their color didn't hurt them...also those people chose to come here while for the most part the ancestors of the folks that are at the disadvantage didn't come here of their own free will...when african slavery ended in this continent there were strong efforts to make life difficult for the former slaves and what we see today is a direct reflection of that.

Also, I cringe when I hear people say or invoke "white guilt." What a crock of shit. It just lazily substitutes for actual action towards understanding and confronting the still massive racial segregation and disparity for a vague emotion. For example, schools in the North are more segregated now than they were BEFORE Brown v. Board of Education.

To me, it's no different than "first world problems" or any other way people try to cope with their privilege without addressing or confronting their own complicity in the system of prejudice, discrimination, and oppression.

Totally on point about the schools...and I agree about people being "lazy"...I think part of the problem is with people admitting to benefitting from institutions and ideals they were simply born into. I think conversation and honesty is a good start though...

Speaking of the first world thread, I found that sad and funny at the same time...good job on calling that out...

[Hype]

I had never seen an all-black minimum wage food-service job until I went to Baltimore. It took a minute to realize why that was, and it was definitely odd to see that kind of clear and distinct segregation of the population that just doesn't exist in Canada, even in the east-Indian or Arab enclaves, you'll see family run joints, but there's no self-imposed but seemingly unchosen restrictions on who frequents the place or whatever. Combine this with the really odd whiteness of Johns Hopkins... (Actually this was even more stark in New Haven...)

Man it's really weird. Of course there's 'white privilege'. There is also male-privilege, and straight-privilege. Deviate any from that, and you're being treated differently whether people are aware of it or not.

[LJF]

ES my point was that while there might be white privilege not all whites are the same. Whites don't always help all whites, there is discrimination within the white class. Being Italian I've experienced it, but no where near what my parents and their parents did. I'd imagine also nowhere near what a black person has to deal with.

Those in power tend to help there own. Whether it's white, black or whatever.

[sinep]

i don't see color. what's a "white person?"

[Hype]

ES my point was that while there might be white privilege not all whites are the same. Whites don't always help all whites, there is discrimination within the white class. Being Italian I've experienced it, but no where near what my parents and their parents did. I'd imagine also nowhere near what a black person has to deal with.

Those in power tend to help there own. Whether it's white, black or whatever.

But "white privilege" isn't about being helped by other white people. It's about the culture at large endorsing inequalities between white and non-white folks, as well as failing to mitigate the causal-historical reality of an unequal starting point within the existing milieu...

[tvrec]

Ambiguous question in the subject line.

Do I believe in it? No.
Do I believe it exists? Yes, in many places/spaces.

[SR]

^my thought on the q exactly

[Essence_Smith]

Ambiguous question in the subject line.

Do I believe in it? No.
Do I believe it exists? Yes, in many places/spaces.

You guys are obviously bright enough to know what I meant...
(at work, will address a few of the statements here later)

[tvrec]

ES,
I did know what you meant, but I didn't have the heart to read the shit, vile, and vinegar that may have been in this thread. Clearly, this is a serious problem with our society, seemingly interminably tied to wealth and privilege. It's disheartening, and I didn't want to get riled up.

[Essence_Smith]

ES,
I did know what you meant, but I didn't have the heart to read the shit, vile, and vinegar that may have been in this thread. Clearly, this is a serious problem with our society, seemingly interminably tied to wealth and privilege. It's disheartening, and I didn't want to get riled up.

Nothing wrong with conversation imo, especially when its on a topic that can be uncomfortable for some...I respect the opinions around here enough to have brought it up and so far its been respectful.

My real concern is since many can acknowledge it, what do we do about it?

[ellis]

Those ethnic groups you mention all happen to be white...

This is one thing that people confuse often. Not all whites are the same. And not all whites get along. I can say the same for people of Asian, Arab or African decent. I've even seen dudes get seriously offended if I confused which African or Arab country they originated from.

I do not like all whites. And I won't name which ones I dislike.


But more to the topic... I don't believe in white privilege. It "looks like" privilege but it's really centuries of growth set in place, reduced entirely to networking. I could point out black privilege and arab privilege and asian privilege but could also see it for what it is and that's networking.

The basic desire of humans to naturally segregate into groups they feel comfortable in and/or being prejudice towards things they do not relate to is not a bad thing. Thousands of years of evolution have made us like that. ALL races do it. Small business owners tend to hire people of similar race or family lineage. I don't think I'm more privileged than other races. My life is not any easier. Still driving the same truck I bought 10 yrs ago. The credit hrs I pay for at college cost the same and are financed by the same gov't regulated institutions. Financially, I've had to bust my ass for a lot of things and there are a many number of other things I've accepted that I'll never have. Non-financially, I can say the same about accomplishments I won't have the time nor resources to accomplish.

I guess I've gotten to an age where I'm more concerned with myself and family and don't really concern myself with anyone else. I'm more focused. When people get caught up in the measuring contest of races and their perceived privilege, I kinda feel sorry for them. (For the record, I know that's not what ES is doing. But I think even ES could agree some people get so caught up in it that it takes over their life and becomes a conspiracy they must rail against.) Every race is unique and has pro's and con's and this uniqueness we have really seems to be ignored in America as to not "offend" people.

[SR]

.....

[SR]

Ambiguous question in the subject line.

Do I believe in it? No.
Do I believe it exists? Yes, in many places/spaces.

You guys are obviously bright enough to know what I meant...
(at work, will address a few of the statements here later)

OK, yes I believe it exists and is perpetuated by all.

[farrellgirl99]

Those ethnic groups you mention all happen to be white...

This is one thing that people confuse often. Not all whites are the same. And not all whites get along. I can say the same for people of Asian, Arab or African decent. I've even seen dudes get seriously offended if I confused which African or Arab country they originated from.

I do not like all whites. And I won't name which ones I dislike.


But more to the topic... I don't believe in white privilege. It "looks like" privilege but it's really centuries of growth set in place, reduced entirely to networking. I could point out black privilege and arab privilege and asian privilege but could also see it for what it is and that's networking.

The basic desire of humans to naturally segregate into groups they feel comfortable in and/or being prejudice towards things they do not relate to is not a bad thing. Thousands of years of evolution have made us like that. ALL races do it. Small business owners tend to hire people of similar race or family lineage. I don't think I'm more privileged than other races. My life is not any easier. Still driving the same truck I bought 10 yrs ago. The credit hrs I pay for at college cost the same and are financed by the same gov't regulated institutions. Financially, I've had to bust my ass for a lot of things and there are a many number of other things I've accepted that I'll never have. Non-financially, I can say the same about accomplishments I won't have the time nor resources to accomplish.

I guess I've gotten to an age where I'm more concerned with myself and family and don't really concern myself with anyone else. I'm more focused. When people get caught up in the measuring contest of races and their perceived privilege, I kinda feel sorry for them. (For the record, I know that's not what ES is doing. But I think even ES could agree some people get so caught up in it that it takes over their life and becomes a conspiracy they must rail against.) Every race is unique and has pro's and con's and this uniqueness we have really seems to be ignored in America as to not "offend" people.

Can you point out black, asian, or arab privilege? I'd like to see what examples you give because I can't think of any societal privileges they get based on their skin color. Unless you consider things like getting stop and frisked or getting called a terrorist privilege.

[kv]

i can answer with what came to my mind "quotas"

when my sister went to high school she had a group of friends who were more like the united nations( black white indian mexican you name it) all extremely bright girls... A students who did the student body, community service, extra credit thing aiming for big schools my sister always wanted to go to cal sate berkeley as did a few of her friends some with lower grade and test scores who all got in ahead of my sister due to race quotas. she actually had to defer a semester to get in. I also have a few friends who married mexican girls and i have watched and talked with them about the advantages they children have received through quotas and grants due to their mixed race ( one of these kids got a 450k grant he wouldn't have been eligible for if he was white)....i think if there is a disadvantage for these races, it's right to try and balance stuff more in their favor... but it can put equally skilled white people at a disadvantage. all the price of balance though...also makes me think of section 9 in ncaa sports for equality between men and womens sports...which is great because it stopped a huge imbalance but as the same time can be swung to make the other side be unbalanced...not as many women play sports as men so there are a ton of underused sports on the women side that have full money coming in to support while over populated mens sports have scholarships and money taken away...it's all big picture stuff in hopes of long term equality but at the same time it can adversely affect people it ideally shouldn't...but it's still progress

[Hype]

.....

Also,