Americans and the Origins of Man

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Hype
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#41 Post by Hype » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:51 am

SR wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:
SR wrote:Yes, I did. I'll read this in order to comment, but Epictetus did write those very sentiments in the notebook. :oldtimer:
I'd like to hear your thoughts on Rosenbaum's defense of the Epicurean argument. It is, imho, a good sign that both Epicureans and Stoics came to a similar conclusion about death (despite logically distinct arguments), because their views about the good life were, in many ways, starkly contrasted (in a quick and dirty nutshell: Epicureans focus on pleasure-maximization, Stoics focus on emotion-minimization and control; both see the end goal of these methods as something like acquiescence to Nature, or peace of mind). It suggests that the conclusion is correct, and that we should take arguments for it seriously.
Shall do, but I have to print to read. I see the conclusions here are different, but the premises are similar, which is all I recall on the matter from The Enchiridion.
Why do you think the conclusions are different? Epictetus does sound remarkably similar to Epicurus:
Epictetus, in the Enchiridion wrote:But if you are averse to sickness, or death, or poverty, you will be wretched. Remove aversion, then, from all things that are not in our control, and transfer it to things contrary to the nature of what is in our control.
[...]
Men are disturbed, not by things, but by the principles and notions which they form concerning things. Death, for instance, is not terrible, else it would have appeared so to Socrates. But the terror consists in our notion of death that it is terrible.

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SR
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#42 Post by SR » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:13 am

:lol: again I confused the issue/point. The conclusions are similar.

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Hype
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#43 Post by Hype » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:14 am

SR wrote::lol: again I confused the issue/point. The conclusions are similar.
It's okay. What is it... 9 AM over there?

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SR
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#44 Post by SR » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:48 am

:lol: ..it was....but no excuse there, been up since 5 and had an hour and a half work out and errands already. I might have bumped my head. :wiggle:

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Bandit72
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#45 Post by Bandit72 » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:39 am

Hype, I'm assuming you have read it, what is Hitchen's book God is Not Great like? I was going to order it today. I know I can get audio or pdf, but I'd rather physically have it. Can you or anyone else recommend some others aside from Dawkins or Krauss.

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Hype
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#46 Post by Hype » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:51 am

Bandit72 wrote:Hype, I'm assuming you have read it, what is Hitchen's book God is Not Great like? I was going to order it today. I know I can get audio or pdf, but I'd rather physically have it. Can you or anyone else recommend some others aside from Dawkins or Krauss.
Yeah. So, I really liked "god is Not GREAT", as a sort of Orwellian essay-style exploration of Hitchens' experiences and explanation of his view. He wasn't a philosopher, or a careful thinker -- his most admirable skill is his rhetorical prowess (a kind of modern day Sophist), and that just makes for really fun reading that you should take in with a critical eye. Don't let him convince you to agree, just because what he's saying *sounds* right. I mean, sometimes he will be right, but not always. I'd say go for it.

As far as other books on this sort of topic, I don't think Dawkins' book is that good (and I say this as a fan of at least two of his earlier pop-biology books that I think are EXCELLENT), though I know some non-academics who enjoyed it because they felt like it got things across in a way that they identified with. I think Krauss is an absolutely terrible thinker who started cashing in on the pop-science cache of being "the physicist" of the atheist movement. His book has been handily criticized by philosophers of physics.

Of all the pop-sci/pop-philosophy books on atheism/belief/etc., I think the one I'd most recommend is Dan Dennett's Breaking the Spell. I enjoyed it. I think it was well-researched and well thought out. I've also met Dan, and I know that he was sincere about writing something that wasn't just cashing in on the faddishness of atheism. It is a longer book than the others though.

But if you want my absolute #1 recommendation: read ANYTHING by Rebecca Goldstein. She's Steven Pinker's wife. But more importantly, she's an amazing writer and a great philosopher, whose recent book is one that I wish I could gift to everyone I know: http://www.rebeccagoldstein.com/publica ... 9t-go-away

She also has this one that might be more directly related to this subject: http://www.rebeccagoldstein.com/publica ... rk-fiction

Absolutely 100%, read Goldstein.

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Bandit72
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#47 Post by Bandit72 » Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:03 am

Yes I know what you mean. He is a fantastic orator and does have that great power of convincing 'one' that every thing he says is correct. Of course, what he says about Islam I actually believe is correct.

Thank you for the reccomendations, I shall take them on board and buy a few you mentioned including Christopher's book.

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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#48 Post by erotic cheeses » Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:47 pm

Hype wrote:
Bandit72 wrote:It is frightening. I'd like to know specifically why it's "10,000 years" Do these people believe in dinosaurs? Or did 'God' decide to go one better by creating human life in their minds? :crazy:
Bill Hicks explains this once.. there was a guy, a Catholic Bishop I believe, who added up the ages of the people chronologically in the Bible and reached something like 4004 years BCE . (+2012= 6016, give or take). So they usually say "Less than 10,000."

The other great thing about the "10,000" number is that that would place the origin of the Earth AFTER the domestication of the wolf. :lol: That's why I said that belief is beyond crazy... it's not just a singularly stupid belief to have, it also means you have a ton of other associated beliefs, like that the Earth was created AFTER humans domesticated wild animals, developed agriculture, learned to use tools; it also means you think all of geology, physics, chemistry, and many other sciences is false too.

I personally know one postgraduate who is a young-Earth Creationist, so I suspect that the majority of those 25% are in theology or law or other stupid departments.



"Oh Lordy it's a great fucking lizard" (bill hicks) God rest his soul

Where is the usa's. Bill hicks replacement?

Pure Method
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#49 Post by Pure Method » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:30 am

I am interested in Goldstien but man I hate Steven Pinker. I should probably not hold that against his wife, though.

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Hype
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#50 Post by Hype » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:13 am

Pure Method wrote:I am interested in Goldstien but man I hate Steven Pinker. I should probably not hold that against his wife, though.
I don't hate Pinker, but I can see why people would. And to be fair to Goldstein, she's been married several times before (Goldstein is not her maiden name), and Pinker seems not to have changed how she writes at all. :lol:

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Angry Canine
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#51 Post by Angry Canine » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:58 am

A friend of mine, knows Ken Ham personally somewhat. His daughter takes piano lessons from I believe it was Ham's daughter, He lives right down the road from "The Museum of Ignorance" as I have come to refer to it, Ham, and a large portion of the museum people live in newer subdivisions near it. My friend says they don't come across as full time nutjobs in unrelated everyday life. My friend said he doesn't attempt to push any of that crap on him (though I don't think I'd be comfortable leaving my child there, even for something like piano lessons). He says that the guy's bookshelf is a sight to see...definitely more than a bit crazy.

I apply my favorite Yogi Berra quote to evolution, though that's not the original subject it was applied to. "You can see a lot, just by looking."

Having death right up in my face for quite a while now has not changed my POV on the subject of God, Religion, and an afterlife. I have a fear of dying, but not being dead. I could care less what becomes of my dead body, though if I had my druthers, I'd be left on the forest floor, to let nature deal with it same as any other animal. I believe another plane of existence, or reincarnation, are remote possibilities, but no fear of any religious visions of afterlife...not even Buddhist or Hindu versions of reincarnation

I won't initiate discussion on the subject, unless it is pushnstaned upon me, or already being discussed. For instance a Chaplain stops by in the hospital where I am spending far too much time (15 days in Oct., and back again today), I was asked if I am OK with them "praying for me" and my answer was that's fine, but don't try to get me to do so, or we'll have a problem.

We are not "descended from apes," we are a type of ape, the way I see it. I think intelligence, and independent, critical thinking have much more to do with your beliefs, than education. If you're not a thinker, you will stick with whatever you were told first as a child, regardless of all the reason, and evidence the world can provide. I was an atheist, before I started school, or knew the word. My mom was a catholic schoolgirl with an Italian mother, and my Italian great grandparents were living nearby as well, but it was religion was never pushed upon me, or ridiculed either during my early years.

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Hype
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#52 Post by Hype » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:31 am

Ha... wow... yeah Ken Ham is one of the more out there creationists.

Sometimes I get a nice reminder how different both groups of self-selected people on the internet (like JA fans) and academics are from any collection of average people. Recently had a friend say "the Big Bang is 'just a theory'", to which I offered the standard reply "So is gravity." which I thought would be enough, but the response I got was more pseudo-educated pseudo-science: "No, gravity is a law. There's no law of the big bang." Which made me cringe, because oh... fuck... Hubble's Law? Plus like... the rest of the laws of physics? It's difficult to imagine what sort of mental process led my friend to think what he said, but I suspect part of it is just straight ignorance, combined with horrible science reporting and intentional misinformation. Anyway it was disappointing on a personal level, but more generally I think it was a helpful reminder not to take for granted that basic public education will succeed in removing these kinds of really fundamentally mistaken beliefs people have, and when you're surrounded by very intelligent, very highly educated people 90% of the time, it's easy to forget that most of the things you take for granted about what the people you're talking to know are not true of a lot of people.

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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#53 Post by guysmiley » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:13 pm

Amen brothers.....ewww. Why would I say that? Anyways, I agree with you guys. :wave: :rockon:

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Bandit72
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#54 Post by Bandit72 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:47 am

I'd rather listen to Ken Hom

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Hype
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Re: Americans and the Origins of Man

#55 Post by Hype » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:44 am

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