Healthcare Mandate Stands

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LJF
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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#26 Post by LJF » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:27 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:Yeah, we won't agree about this, because that's just dumb. The United States has a fucked up level of income inequality. The number of people not paying taxes has nothing to do with anything.
Really, interesting sorry you can't understand this concept. We the US gets to the point where over 50 percent isn't paying federal tax, yet they are receiving federal programs they will always vote for the party that wants to continue those programs.

Have as many programs as you'd like, but FUCKING PAY FOR THEM.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#27 Post by Juana » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:40 pm

LJF wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:Yeah, we won't agree about this, because that's just dumb. The United States has a fucked up level of income inequality. The number of people not paying taxes has nothing to do with anything.
Really, interesting sorry you can't understand this concept. We the US gets to the point where over 50 percent isn't paying federal tax, yet they are receiving federal programs they will always vote for the party that wants to continue those programs.

Have as many programs as you'd like, but FUCKING PAY FOR THEM.
I get what you're saying, the issue is that its not fair to have half the country that is paying taxes, pay for the whole system. Rich or poor. Should just have it mandated that if you do not pay into the system you do not get any of the benefits. I'm not saying x% into the system but everyone should have to pay into something that benefits everyone.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#28 Post by Hype » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:41 pm

Okay, look, I was pretty harsh, but it's because I've already got my reasoning for my position thought out. Here's what I'd need to be convinced that your point is even worth making:

You need to demonstrate at least one (if not both of) two things conclusively:

A) You need to show that the 50% who aren't paying taxes, were they to pay taxes, would make a significant difference to federal revenue.
B) You need to show that even if (A) can't be shown, it's somehow meaningful that people who aren't contributing to a program are making use of it.

I don't think you can do either (for reasons I haven't given yet, but the burden of proof is on you here... I want to know why you hold the belief you hold... I know why I hold the belief I hold.)

If you can do one of those, I'll take back my description of it as 'dumb' (I was careful not to call you dumb, since I don't think you are, but I do think that this particular belief is a dumb belief, though I could be wrong.)

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#29 Post by chaos » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:45 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... notax.html
Who doesn't pay federal taxes
The statement that about half of U.S. taxpayers don't pay any income tax is often misinterpreted to mean that half don't pay any federal taxes at all.
Out of the tens of millions of households that will file federal tax returns to the IRS . . .
Image
. . . 76 million will not pay any income tax in 2011.
Image
That accounts for nearly half of all tax returns.
Image
However, many of those filers WILL pay payroll taxes . . .
Image
Leaving just 18 percent of Americans who don't pay any income OR payroll tax.
Image
Leaving just 1 percent non-elderly, non-workers making more than $20,000.
Image

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#30 Post by Juana » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:19 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:Okay, look, I was pretty harsh, but it's because I've already got my reasoning for my position thought out. Here's what I'd need to be convinced that your point is even worth making:

You need to demonstrate at least one (if not both of) two things conclusively:

A) You need to show that the 50% who aren't paying taxes, were they to pay taxes, would make a significant difference to federal revenue.
B) You need to show that even if (A) can't be shown, it's somehow meaningful that people who aren't contributing to a program are making use of it.

I don't think you can do either (for reasons I haven't given yet, but the burden of proof is on you here... I want to know why you hold the belief you hold... I know why I hold the belief I hold.)

If you can do one of those, I'll take back my description of it as 'dumb' (I was careful not to call you dumb, since I don't think you are, but I do think that this particular belief is a dumb belief, though I could be wrong.)
Chaos posted the story on the taxes.

I had a long reply typed up but I realize that it seems from your posts you leave out personal responsibility for the whole of the country. It's not my responsibility to make sure the people that live in my community do not die. It's my responsibility to not harm them. That is all. I think this is where you and I differ in a lot of things, I do help out in my community and I do donate a lot of time, money and attention to causes in my community. But its not an obligation, those people that we're trying to help eventually have to make a choice and be responsible for themselves if they want things to get better..

I believe everyone should have health care but there has to be a way to fund it that is actually fair. Just because someone has more than someone else doesn't mean the person with the extra stuff lives the same quality of life, meaning taxing them the most would hurt their quality of life which seems unfair when it would benefit the whole country, but yet in reality its only a certain amount of people carrying the burden. If it benefits everyone, then everyone that is ABLE to work should have to pay into it, even if its only $5 a year, I would be okay with that. I mean $5 from the people that did not pay taxes in 2011 would be a shit ton of money and it would lessen the burden on the Haves while not crippling the Have-nots.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#31 Post by creep » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:30 pm

Juana wrote:
LJF wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:Yeah, we won't agree about this, because that's just dumb. The United States has a fucked up level of income inequality. The number of people not paying taxes has nothing to do with anything.
Really, interesting sorry you can't understand this concept. We the US gets to the point where over 50 percent isn't paying federal tax, yet they are receiving federal programs they will always vote for the party that wants to continue those programs.

Have as many programs as you'd like, but FUCKING PAY FOR THEM.
I get what you're saying, the issue is that its not fair to have half the country that is paying taxes, pay for the whole system. Rich or poor. Should just have it mandated that if you do not pay into the system you do not get any of the benefits. I'm not saying x% into the system but everyone should have to pay into something that benefits everyone.
a federal sales tax instead of federal income tax would solve this problem. i just can't see any downside to this.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#32 Post by Juana » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:46 pm

creep wrote:
Juana wrote:
LJF wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:Yeah, we won't agree about this, because that's just dumb. The United States has a fucked up level of income inequality. The number of people not paying taxes has nothing to do with anything.
Really, interesting sorry you can't understand this concept. We the US gets to the point where over 50 percent isn't paying federal tax, yet they are receiving federal programs they will always vote for the party that wants to continue those programs.

Have as many programs as you'd like, but FUCKING PAY FOR THEM.
I get what you're saying, the issue is that its not fair to have half the country that is paying taxes, pay for the whole system. Rich or poor. Should just have it mandated that if you do not pay into the system you do not get any of the benefits. I'm not saying x% into the system but everyone should have to pay into something that benefits everyone.
a federal sales tax instead of federal income tax would solve this problem. i just can't see any downside to this.
I think that is a great idea in regards to it.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#33 Post by clickie » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:59 am

they should just increase taxes on everything thats unhealthy...especially soda.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#34 Post by Hype » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:29 am

It's not my responsibility to make sure the people that live in my community do not die. It's my responsibility to not harm them. That is all.
This is just a narrow ideological position though (a standard libertarian one). And it's not justified. You haven't given any reasons to support thinking that... you kind of... just think it.

But have you read Isaiah Berlin's "Two Concepts of Liberty"? It's probably the most famous thing ever written on this issue, and most undergrads in philosophy and political science are required to read it.

If you skim the wiki article, it might give you some idea why you can't just say what you say about responsibility, etc., without having good reasons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Concepts_of_Liberty

The reason we disagree is quite simply because you think (or hold beliefs that imply that) justice is MERELY the neo-liberal ideal of non-interference/non-harm (for J.S. Mill, Locke, Rawls, etc., this is called something like "The Harm Principle"), but I can demonstrate ad nauseam the ways in which this generates insufficiently just outcomes. Stamping your feet and saying "Fuck, I'm not responsible for anyone else, so long as I'm not harming them!" just isn't good enough. Give me the reasons why not.

I was actually referring to LJF in my original post... but Juana, you seem to hold a similar view too... I'm really just curious how far people's thinking goes when they make claims like "I'm not responsible for _____." or "At some point they have to make a choice and be responsible for themselves." or "It's not fair if they don't pay anything." None of those seem true to me at all.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#35 Post by LJF » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:26 pm

I'm against spending programs that aren't paid for. I also feel government run programs are mostly failures filled with waste. I also don't believe in tax the rich well because they can afford to be taxed. Everyone or most everyone should have skin in the game.

My point about the 50 percent not paying taxes but receiving benefits is a tipping point because how can you think that they would ever vote for the party that would reduce those benefits. It would never happen, even if it was for the greater good.

I want this country to start being more fiscally responsible. How can the government think the people will be if the government can't be. We are heading towards Greece, Spain, Italy, etc. More spending programs will not help.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#36 Post by Juana » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:42 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
It's not my responsibility to make sure the people that live in my community do not die. It's my responsibility to not harm them. That is all.
This is just a narrow ideological position though (a standard libertarian one). And it's not justified. You haven't given any reasons to support thinking that... you kind of... just think it.

But have you read Isaiah Berlin's "Two Concepts of Liberty"? It's probably the most famous thing ever written on this issue, and most undergrads in philosophy and political science are required to read it.

If you skim the wiki article, it might give you some idea why you can't just say what you say about responsibility, etc., without having good reasons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Concepts_of_Liberty

The reason we disagree is quite simply because you think (or hold beliefs that imply that) justice is MERELY the neo-liberal ideal of non-interference/non-harm (for J.S. Mill, Locke, Rawls, etc., this is called something like "The Harm Principle"), but I can demonstrate ad nauseam the ways in which this generates insufficiently just outcomes. Stamping your feet and saying "Fuck, I'm not responsible for anyone else, so long as I'm not harming them!" just isn't good enough. Give me the reasons why not.

I was actually referring to LJF in my original post... but Juana, you seem to hold a similar view too... I'm really just curious how far people's thinking goes when they make claims like "I'm not responsible for _____." or "At some point they have to make a choice and be responsible for themselves." or "It's not fair if they don't pay anything." None of those seem true to me at all.
As for fairness put it like this, I have worked hard all my life. Even though I was born into money I joined the military. I went to college. I have never used my family money for anything. I worked for everything out of respect for what my family had built. Bleeding my family's funds dry would have been selfish and wrong. I am a French and US citizen (which sucks because the state dept always sends my passport back to France and I have to wait for it to come back :eyes: ) so I have seen both sides of things. I love the vacation stuff in France, I love the idea of health care for everyone. But I'm a realist, someone has to pay for it.

Basically if someone is working harder than everyone else and thus making a lot more money and that person pays his or her taxes, why should they be punished so that others can have something? To me if my taxes get raised because a good number of people do not pay anything, I view that as a punishment for being successful. Do those people deserve 10 bedroom homes or gold toilets? Of course not, but if they earned it they should have the option to use THEIR money for what they want and not so they can "better the community".

The reason I'm not responsible for other people, is because they can make their own choices. Most of the time they make terrible ones and then want to whine about it. I see a lot of the homeless in Austin all the time. I talk to them all and if its nasty out we let them in the bar / venues. About 80% of them are there because of stupid choices that they have made in their lives. Since I can not make their choices for them, I can not be responsible for them as its out of my control. You know a lot about philosophy, just like a lot of the students at UT and TX ST which are two local colleges, but the issue with that is you can not apply it to people who have free will. Much like with an addict, if they want to use they will regardless of what you do, because it's their choice.

You want a perfect community, get rid of the money and assign people duties in the community so then everyone is invested in the success of the community. Personal responsibility and ownership from buying into the idea, will then make everyone in the community responsible. Otherwise someone will always be getting fucked because they have more than someone else.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#37 Post by Hype » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:36 pm

You know a lot about philosophy, just like a lot of the students at UT and TX ST which are two local colleges, but the issue with that is you can not apply it to people who have free will.
I do not think anyone has free will. That is why I think you are wrong. I differ from almost all liberals because of this. Yet I accept an ultra-radical form of socialism (actually just ultra-radical equality of opportunity) that always has me agreeing with progressive policies. The problem is that the left has taken it for granted that "Free Will" is a coherent concept, and left it as an ungrounded assumption at the bottom of political theory in such a way that their notion of justice gets constrained. Just look at the reality on the ground. The United States is empirically unjust, and not because 50% of people aren't paying federal income tax, but because there is massive corporate power controlling the way money does get spent (even in Medicare and Medicaid). Social Security is a huge expenditure, and so much the better for the United States... but things could be better.

I guess I won't keep pushing you for now, but you still haven't justified anything... you just keep making assumptions that aren't theory-independent, and so can't be accepted by anyone who disagrees with you.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#38 Post by LJF » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:52 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
You know a lot about philosophy, just like a lot of the students at UT and TX ST which are two local colleges, but the issue with that is you can not apply it to people who have free will.
I do not think anyone has free will. That is why I think you are wrong. I differ from almost all liberals because of this. Yet I accept an ultra-radical form of socialism (actually just ultra-radical equality of opportunity) that always has me agreeing with progressive policies. The problem is that the left has taken it for granted that "Free Will" is a coherent concept, and left it as an ungrounded assumption at the bottom of political theory in such a way that their notion of justice gets constrained. Just look at the reality on the ground. The United States is empirically unjust, and not because 50% of people aren't paying federal income tax, but because there is massive corporate power controlling the way money does get spent (even in Medicare and Medicaid). Social Security is a huge expenditure, and so much the better for the United States... but things could be better.

I guess I won't keep pushing you for now, but you still haven't justified anything... you just keep making assumptions that aren't theory-independent, and so can't be accepted by anyone who disagrees with you.
You talk a lot about books, articles, and theory, but that isn't the real world. You want proof of what I've been saying look to Greece, Spain , Italy and large number of other European countries. Entitlements are great in theory, but when they aren't paid for they really just don't work. I'm not sure what other proof you need.

As an American I don't want to see this country go that way and if things don't change quickly we will. Sorry if you can't understand this. People want something for nothing, well that doesn't work.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#39 Post by Juana » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:03 pm

Well I guess me not being a determinist is the issue.. but if that is the case then fuck health care or laws since we're all going to die one day anyway.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#40 Post by Hype » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:04 pm

Juana wrote:Well I guess me not being a determinist is the issue.. but if that is the case then fuck health care or laws since we're all going to die one day anyway.
Determinism is not fatalism. (And actually, I'm not a determinist, I'm a necessitarian... hardest of the hard determinists... We don't need to have that argument here... but at least you clearly see how it plays a key role in the differing viewpoints.)

And this "books" vs "real world" thing (LJF) is a fucking retarded trope that gets trotted out to allow people to avoid thinking for themselves... it's simply not true, and is just a cop out.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#41 Post by Juana » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:18 pm

Yeah and I'm not as libertarian as I sound in this thread. I know taxes have to be in part of it and I get that but if they do something like they have at least here and put luxury taxes on things, some of those funds could go towards it. I know a lot of people not paying taxes probably smoke or drink, so maybe there should be a portion of that going towards raising funds.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#42 Post by tvrec » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:31 pm

LJF wrote: You talk a lot about books, articles, and theory, but that isn't the real world. You want proof of what I've been saying look to Greece, Spain , Italy and large number of other European countries. Entitlements are great in theory, but when they aren't paid for they really just don't work. I'm not sure what other proof you need.

As an American I don't want to see this country go that way and if things don't change quickly we will. Sorry if you can't understand this. People want something for nothing, well that doesn't work.
The problem here, again, is much more complicated than entitlements, whether in the US, Canada, or the troubled European countries you've listed. None of the budgetary problems can be calked up to entitlements, even if they look an easy scapegoat or perhaps one of the easier things to target through "austerity measures." Though I would grant that they could be a contributing factor to the problem, and definitely now, I would describe them more as exacerbating a problem they didn't directly cause. A lot of the current problems in Spain and Greece, for instance, are reverberations of the housing market crisis and the wall street melt down in the US (subprime financing, bundled derivatives, and so forth) and their own bad debt/credit "bets." (Planet Money had a good show (aired through This American Life) a while back that's worth checking out. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/01/ ... rican-life. The same podcast has run several shows on what the health care changes in the US might mean, too, that are worth checking out.) Meanwhile, Germany has a healthy welfare state (in fiscal terms) and a more than healthy economy, which is to say, welfare state policies are not the root of the problem under debate here, but a targeted "solution" to a larger problem in arguments such as yours. You can look into the Scandinavian countries as well, with famously high entitlements and see that they are doing rather well in economic measures and quality of life. And, yes, the people in these countries pay more taxes than people in the US as a rule, and more people per capita contribute, too, since income distribution is nowhere near as skewed as it is in the US.

Here's a quick--really quick--Atlantic article on the subject that breaks down this spending vs. debt debate nicely:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ph/259056/

In the abstract, though, I would agree with you that governments shouldn't spend money they don't have--in a perfect world. Yet we know we don't live in such a place, and deficit spending is not only logical at times but absolutely necessary, like when a country is in recession as opposed to when it's not and institutes massive tax cuts, with tax rates near historic lows (http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3151--this is also an interesting comparison to note that Greeks, Spaniards, and Italians all pay more income taxes than Americans, which if I am not mistaken is in addition to Value Added Taxes, similar to the regressive Federal Sales Tax proposed in this thread which most European countries have, making sales taxes totaling somewhere between 13% and 18%) at the same time that it opens up traditional wars on two fronts (recalling the first decade of the century). Of course, the question isn't as easy as should we pay for war or pay for health care. My point here is a pretty simple one: the government spends money all the time on things it hasn't paid for, through tax cuts as much as, if not more than, through spending.

That said, theoretically, the health care reform should actually address your entitlement complaint. Americans already pay more in taxes for health care than Canada, and Canada has single-payer with everyone covered, whereas in the US taxes go to programs only for the poor (Medicaid) and the old (Medicare), leaving many people who have health coverage actually paying twice, once through their wages whether or not they contribute or their employer pays the entire coverage amount (which is obviously part of one's wages) and secondly in their taxes, which they may not be "entitled" to make claims against for 40+ years (considering a typical working career). The idea behind the individual mandate is that all people will be required to contribute to private insurance company programs, which is rather different than a single-payer system that could be categorized as an entitlement (which I actually prefer). Subsidies/tax breaks for low-income people to purchase insurance could be categorized as an entitlement in an abstract sense, I suppose, but they don't constitute a universal program of entitlements per se and, I would hope, would be a wash against the taxes we already pay for the uninsured (with private companies).

In any case, the argument isn't between the real world and theory-ladden academic abstraction. We're all taking about the real world, albeit from different contexts and experiences.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#43 Post by LJF » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:47 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
Juana wrote:Well I guess me not being a determinist is the issue.. but if that is the case then fuck health care or laws since we're all going to die one day anyway.
Determinism is not fatalism. (And actually, I'm not a determinist, I'm a necessitarian... hardest of the hard determinists... We don't need to have that argument here... but at least you clearly see how it plays a key role in the differing viewpoints.)

And this "books" vs "real world" thing (LJF) is a fucking retarded trope that gets trotted out to allow people to avoid thinking for themselves... it's simply not true, and is just a cop out.
Ok then maybe I should go read to learn how to think for myself since what I'm saying is so fucking retarded. Look if you want to believe that having programs that aren't paid is a good thing then go for it. I'm not saying that these programs are the only reason for debt issues, but by adding more of these unfunded programs sure doesn't help.

You simply want to ignore what I keep saying about the European countries and their issues. Facts are a real motherfucker.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#44 Post by Hype » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:55 pm

Juana wrote:Yeah and I'm not as libertarian as I sound in this thread. I know taxes have to be in part of it and I get that but if they do something like they have at least here and put luxury taxes on things, some of those funds could go towards it. I know a lot of people not paying taxes probably smoke or drink, so maybe there should be a portion of that going towards raising funds.
I just don't understand what poor people paying taxes has to do with "fairness"... what on earth has that got to do with anything? What does the poor guy working shitty hours at a Wendy's for $10 an hour living hand-to-mouth and barely affording rent on some shithole and having no opportunity to improve himself paying 10-15% of his income in federal tax got to do with making the system more fair?

This whole thing seems fucking absurd. There's a good reason why there are exemptions for people living at or below the poverty level and those people not paying taxes and yet making use of public services is NOT unfair or bad in any way.

(Admittedly, I'm inebriated at the moment so I may be Jasper-esque in my ability to be conciliatory at the moment... but I really just want someone to mount a serious strong argument for this ... and I still haven't seen it... I just see Juana and LJF asserting "it's unfair" over and over for no apparent reason...)

As I've said, there are two clear concerns:
A) Whether a public service is paid for.
B) Whether it's fair for people to make use of a public service without THEMSELVES paying into it.

I think we ALL agree that (A) is important. But (A) isn't the issue, because poor people paying federal taxes won't somehow magically make public services fiscally solvent.

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#45 Post by Juana » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:21 pm

Would it be fair if I just walked up to 10 people with my snake charmer (sawed off 12 gauge) and out of a group of 10 I robbed only 5 of them, and for the other 5 I gave them part of the money because they were not dressed as nice? Cause that is all I see when your logic is to tax the rich because they can afford it. My complaint is more about how high do you raise the taxes on the people actually paying them so the others that do not continually benefit.

Since this is about health, then tax the shit that everyone is ingesting that is unhealthy. Simple way to raise the funds because if someone is making $10 / hr they shouldn't be wasting money on booze and shit like that anyway if they were so concerned about rent and not being able to better themselves. :nod:

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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#46 Post by Hype » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:30 pm

I'll try another line of reasoning:

Take person A and person B.

Person A makes $1 million a year. Let's say they get taxed at 50% (a stretch in the United States. More than likely, they avail themselves of all the loopholes they can manage and end up paying a Warren Buffet-like 13% or so, but ignore that for the sake of the real point I'm making). So they pay $500,000 this year.

Person B makes $20,000 a year. Under the current rules, let's assume they don't end up paying any taxes (i.e., they receive all their federal income tax back at the end of the year.)

Now let's assume that Person A stays healthy, and Person B, through no fault of their own, develops a health condition before they are able to avail themselves of a company health plan (let's say the shitty corporation they work for did not have an employee health plan until after they developed their condition, and so they were denied coverage).

Now, let's assume that under the new Healthcare Mandate, Person B is now provided a means to be given coverage, but still pays no federal taxes.

Now let's assume that (contrary to the stated claims of the administration) the new system INCREASES the deficit. (The Administration actually claims that the new mandate will DECREASE the deficit, but never mind that for now).

You are making two claims:

1) We shouldn't have changed the system to something we have even less ability to pay for.
2) Even if we COULD pay for it, it's unfair for Person B to receive coverage and treatment for a condition through an insurance plan their taxes haven't paid into.

The first claim is plausible, as I've said. Yes, it's true that increasing government spending at ANY level, without increasing REVENUE is OBVIOUSLY going to be a problem. No one is arguing about this. But that's why they are increasing revenue. Which is where (2) comes in. (2) is a claim about the chosen METHOD of increasing revenue. Namely, of not taxing the poor, but of increasing taxes on the rich to pay for an enlargement of a social service that the poor make use of.

There are a bunch of questions to ask here. Here's the first one, which I think is the easiest: Would it help pay for a larger social safety net to tax those who current aren't paying any federal income tax?

Let's say we implement a modest tax rate of 10% on Person B. That means instead of paying ZERO, they pay $2000. This means that their net income is now significantly lower -- $18k, less other taxes, less the fact that they can't avail themselves of a team of high priced accountants to sequester their money in tax-free havens.

This makes a huge difference to the quality of life of a person at that level. It means if they have a modest amount of credit debt, they are $2000 less able to pay down the interest, and so on.

Not only this, but let's say there are 50 million people who at 10% would pay an average of about $2000 in federal income tax under this supposedly "fairer" system. That generates $100 billion dollars in revenue.

That may seem like a lot, but it's not. Some of the SMALLEST federal programs cost that much. Canada only has 35 million citizens (and far less than that many tax payers) and we have a trillion dollar GDP and hundred billion dollar budget. It would not make much of a dent in the $900+ billion dollar a year Social Security payments or the $1 trillion medicare/medicaid budget.

Now let's say we close a couple of loopholes and increase the income tax rate on the RICHEST tax bracket from 50% to 51%.

Instead of paying 500,000, Person A now pays 510,000. That's 8,000 more dollars than taxing Person A would net (i.e., 5x as much), and so taxing people in Person A's bracket ONE MEASLY PERCENT more, which they can CLEARLY afford, covers FIVE poor people. So instead of taxing 50 million poor people $2000, you can tax 10 million people who clear a million dollars a year an extra $8,000 (over the amount you'd tax the poor) to net the same amount. If you tax the 50 million poorest Americans at 10% you have made their lives significantly harder. If you tax the 10 million richest Americans SLIGHTLY more, you haven't made anyone's life significantly harder at all.

Why on earth is it more fair to tax 50 million impoverished Americans? :confused: I really don't get it.

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Juana
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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#47 Post by Juana » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:42 pm

Juana wrote:Since this is about health, then tax the shit that everyone is ingesting that is unhealthy. Simple way to raise the funds because if someone is making $10 / hr they shouldn't be wasting money on booze and shit like that anyway if they were so concerned about rent and not being able to better themselves. :nod:
Tax the goods making things unhealthy is what I was saying with this.

Do some research and you will see as the cost of food has decreased as a % of people's spending, their health has gotten worse. So encourage people to buy healthier by taxing the unhealthy shit, then use part of the revenue from that to fund things so that way its not just half bearing the burden of the whole.

Besides raising taxes more on the wealthy will just lead to them finding more tax shelters so it wouldn't effect them either way, it would be the upper middle class that lives on what they make and doesn't have millions in the bank that gets hurt the most.
Last edited by Juana on Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hype
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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#48 Post by Hype » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:44 pm

Juana wrote:
Juana wrote:Since this is about health, then tax the shit that everyone is ingesting that is unhealthy. Simple way to raise the funds because if someone is making $10 / hr they shouldn't be wasting money on booze and shit like that anyway if they were so concerned about rent and not being able to better themselves. :nod:
If someone is making Fifty MILLION dollars a year, they shouldn't be ruining their health either, because it makes the PUBLIC system more expensive for EVERYONE, except that the fifty-million dollar a year man can afford it. Your point doesn't have any relevance... it's OBVIOUS that people shouldn't waste their money... that's not a reason to tax poor people.

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Juana
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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#49 Post by Juana » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:47 pm

You got me before I finished my edit up there...

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Hype
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Re: Healthcare Mandate Stands

#50 Post by Hype » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:50 pm

You are still making strange assumptions... the fact that the rich might find loopholes isn't a reason to tax the poor instead. Tax the rich but try to close the loopholes. :confused:

We really are on polar opposite sides here. I'm one of these:


Encouraging GHETTOIZED people to "buy healthier food" is idiotic... when urban planning has placed the closest grocery store OUT OF WALKING DISTANCE from those living in subsidized housing (which is OFTEN, if not ALWAYS the case), then your exhortation (or TAX INCENTIVE) to "buy healthier, you poor idiots!" is just insane. The government should fix the zoning instead. :nod:

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