Trayvon Martin

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Romeo
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Re: Trayvon Martin

#76 Post by Romeo » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:21 pm

chaos wrote:The 911 call is pretty damning, and the reason race has been raised in the first place is because of the shooter's own words. By his own admission he said that Trayvon looked "suspicious" (among other things). He chose to get out of his car when Trayvon ran away from him. Now he's crying that he had no other choice than to shoot because the kid fought him.

Some people do not want to accept the extent to which race is still an issue in the country, yet some people accept it and feel that minorities need to be careful with how they dress.

Some people think that a hate crime label should not be applied (or that there should be no such thing as a hate crime).

Some people think that the shooter was defending himself.

The bottom line is that an unarmed 17 year old was pursued, approached, and shot by a man who thought he didn't belong in his neighborhood. The shooter has yet to be arrested. Even though the child had id on him, it took several days before the police notified the child's parents.

This is not something you "get over." It is a big deal.
:nod:

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Essence_Smith
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Re: Trayvon Martin

#77 Post by Essence_Smith » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:45 pm

hokahey wrote:It's always gotten under my skin
Clearly...not for nothing I don't even remember the details of the incident, nor do I care to rehash it, nor do I need you to explain your side of what happened...its in the past and people have moved on...if its a sore spot for you I can understand, but I'm pretty sure you can gather from our interaction here and on the boards in general that I don't view you in any negative light because of a story I may have heard or what people said about an incident years ago...I tend to base my opinion on how people address me personally and I am totally able to disagree with people and still maintain a basic respect for the person's right to express themselves, etc...I saw the part of the article and it reminded me of that situation...I didn't even call your name...obviously it left a bad taste in your mouth and that's understandable, but it really ain't that serious...take it as you will...

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#78 Post by farrellgirl99 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:38 pm

SR wrote:
chaos wrote:The 911 call is pretty damning, and the reason race has been raised in the first place is because of the shooter's own words. By his own admission he said that Trayvon looked "suspicious" (among other things). He chose to get out of his car when Trayvon ran away from him. Now he's crying that he had no other choice than to shoot because the kid fought him.

Some people do not want to accept the extent to which race is still an issue in the country, yet some people accept it and feel that minorities need to be careful with how they dress.

Some people think that a hate crime label should not be applied (or that there should be no such thing as a hate crime).

Some people think that the shooter was defending himself.

The bottom line is that an unarmed 17 year old was pursued, approached, and shot by a man who thought he didn't belong in his neighborhood. The shooter has yet to be arrested. Even though the child had id on him, it took several days before the police notified the child's parents.

This is not something you "get over." It is a big deal.

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dali
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Re: Trayvon Martin

#79 Post by dali » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:08 pm

Essence_Smith wrote:
hokahey wrote:It's always gotten under my skin
Clearly...not for nothing I don't even remember the details of the incident, nor do I care to rehash it, nor do I need you to explain your side of what happened...its in the past and people have moved on....
you just said it yourself. Why can that apply to Hoka but not to black history? What's the difference?
just saying that instead of moving on "some" african americans like to make everything about race when it involves a black person. Maybe if they didn't bring race into it so much there would be less racism? I mean if "some" keep drawing attention to something than people are gonna give attention to it. If you ignore something (like a persons race) people don't notice it so much.

I live in SoCal and it's like how the mexicans (they're mexicans because they are from Mexico, not "latinos" because I don't even know where Latin America is lol) like to make the DUI checkpoints into some sort of racial profiling thing to weed out the illegals when in reality they are just DUI checkpoints like they have everywhere else in the country.

BTW, I was born in Baltimore so "blacks" are not foreign to me but I truly believe I am somewhat racist because I was brought up that way by my Father.

I think most kids are neutral on the race subject when they are born and it's what they learn along the way that makes them racist or not.

My dilemma is I know I'm like this but I can't shake it because it was ingrained in me at a young age and it seems hard to teach old dogs new tricks. This is why racism will never go away.It will keep being "taught", all we can hope is the degree to which it is taught lessens over time.

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#80 Post by farrellgirl99 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:24 pm

dali wrote:
Essence_Smith wrote:
hokahey wrote:It's always gotten under my skin
Clearly...not for nothing I don't even remember the details of the incident, nor do I care to rehash it, nor do I need you to explain your side of what happened...its in the past and people have moved on....
you just said it yourself. Why can that apply to Hoka but not to black history? What's the difference?
just saying that instead of moving on "some" african americans like to make everything about race when it involves a black person. Maybe if they didn't bring race into it so much there would be less racism? I mean if "some" keep drawing attention to something than people are gonna give attention to it. If you ignore something (like a persons race) people don't notice it so much.

I live in SoCal and it's like how the mexicans (they're mexicans because they are from Mexico, not "latinos" because I don't even know where Latin America is lol) like to make the DUI checkpoints into some sort of racial profiling thing to weed out the illegals when in reality they are just DUI checkpoints like they have everywhere else in the country.

BTW, I was born in Baltimore so "blacks" are not foreign to me but I truly believe I am somewhat racist because I was brought up that way by my Father.

I think most kids are neutral on the race subject when they are born and it's what they learn along the way that makes them racist or not.

My dilemma is I know I'm like this but I can't shake it because it was ingrained in me at a young age and it seems hard to teach old dogs new tricks. This is why racism will never go away.It will keep being "taught", all we can hope is the degree to which it is taught lessens over time.
Obviously everyone is neutral when they are born, how could they not be? :hs:

And that's a godawful excuse to still be racist/act racist. My parents say racist/anti semitic shit sometimes, but I call them out on it and am above that. Just because we are ingrained in certain ways (as I think most white people are) doesn't mean we shouldn't overcome it/actively try to overcome basic prejudices. That's a personal fault, not a societal fault.

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dali
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Re: Trayvon Martin

#81 Post by dali » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:29 pm

farrellgirl99 wrote: Obviously everyone is neutral when they are born, how could they not be?
So you believe everything is "nurture" and nothing is "nature". That is a whole 'nother thread.

I actually believe everything is ~80% nature and 20% nurture except racism seems to be an exception to the rule.

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Hype
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Re: Trayvon Martin

#82 Post by Hype » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:43 pm

dali wrote:
farrellgirl99 wrote: Obviously everyone is neutral when they are born, how could they not be?
So you believe everything is "nurture" and nothing is "nature". That is a whole 'nother thread.

I actually believe everything is ~80% nature and 20% nurture except racism seems to be an exception to the rule.
There's a difference between disposition and state, and the former may be influenced or changed by the latter (the former obviously affects the latter). It's an empirical question whether there are genes or hormonal levels that correlate with dispositions to racist behaviour or beliefs -- you could test this with twin studies (but finding twins separated at birth or early childhood who happen to have been adopted by socially disparate families is extremely difficult).

Farrellgirl99 is right, if she means that babies aren't born with beliefs about other races. That's just obvious, and it doesn't imply that she believes "everything is "nurture"".

The claim that everything is 80%-20% is an empirical one. I don't know of any data corroborating your claim, but it might be true.

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#83 Post by creep » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:50 pm

:noclue: at least he admits that he is a racist unlike others here.

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#84 Post by Hype » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:57 pm

creep wrote::noclue: at least he admits that he is a racist unlike others here.
Wtf is race? :lol:

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#85 Post by Hype » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:01 pm

Colbert was talking about this: http://oxfordstudent.com/2012/03/14/hea ... cial-bias/
Heart disease pill could ‘reduce racial bias’

By Jonathan Tomlin | Last updated: 21:00, 14/03/2012
Heart disease pill could ‘reduce racial bias’

Oxford University researchers have discovered that a common heart disease drug may alter subconscious attitudes to race.

Volunteers given propranolol were found to score better on a test of implicit racial attitudes.

The drug, used to lower heart rates, caused participants to appear less prejudiced than those given a placebo.

The test involved two groups of 18 people associating positive or negative words with pictures of black and white individuals.

One group had taken propranolol one or two hours earlier, while the other had taken a placebo.

The results were based on how quickly the participants associated the words with the faces.

Dr Sylvia Terbeck, the psychologist who led the study, said: “Propranolol is not only used for heart conditions, but also works in the brain, in the region of emotional and fear responses. We suspect fear may be involved in some forms of prejudice.

“You usually find that white people are usually quicker when sorting good words to white faces, or bad words to black faces, but with the propranolol group, this did not happen. But overall the groups had the same response.

“Implicit racial bias can occur even in people with a sincere belief in equality. The main finding of our research is that propranolol significantly reduced implicit but not explicit racial bias.”

She added: “It is only a single study, and you would not draw conclusions from one study, but I find it still quite important that a drug can regulate racial prejudice.

“Next you would try to replicate the findings, then see if the effect would persist from long-term clinical treatment, and test other prejudices to see if people behave differently towards other racial groups.”

Dr Guy Kahane, Deputy Director of the Centre for Practical Ethics, who was also part of the study, said: “Our basic finding was that participants who were given propranolol exhibited significantly less racial bias compared to participants who were given only a placebo pill. This was measured through a test called ‘the Implicit Association Test’ (IAT), a standard device for measuring implicit prejudice. There is a lot of work showing that scores on the IAT can predict people’s behaviour in fairly realistic situations.

“In our study, white participants were measured for their implicit bias against black people. Interestingly, we only found an effect on implicit racial prejudice. The drug didn’t affect people’s explicit attitudes towards, for example, black people or homosexuals—what people say when they are explicitly asked how they feel about these groups.”

But he also stressed the limits of this test: “This one study in no way shows that propranolol is a pill that can cure racism. Propranolol affects many processes in the nervous system. Some of these effects might be beneficial, but some aren’t. Propranolol can make you drowsy, slower on some cognitive tasks, and less emotionally responsive, for both better and worse. Still, the nice thing about propranolol is that it’s a safe and familiar drug which is already widely used.

“Even if the effect we found will be fully validated by future research, no one could seriously suggest handing out propranolol to reduce racism—and remember that it anyway doesn’t affect the nastiest forms of explicit racism.

“I suppose a more interesting question is whether it could be used in a more targeted way in contexts where we have reason to think that implicit attitudes may bias decisions—for example in legal contexts when judges or juries are making a decision, or in a hiring committee. I don’t think we are anywhere near giving juries propranolol, but in the longer term, this is the kind of idea we might need to seriously think about.”
I'd discovered propanolol in a Bioethics course... it can be used to treat PTSD and such... and as a possible "memory-eraser".

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#86 Post by dali » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:45 pm

"I don’t think we are anywhere near giving juries propranolol, but in the longer term, this is the kind of idea we might need to seriously think about.”

Oh Good Lord :crazy:

Drug 'em, that'll make 'em think clear! lol

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#87 Post by Hokahey » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:48 am

dali wrote:
"I don’t think we are anywhere near giving juries propranolol, but in the longer term, this is the kind of idea we might need to seriously think about.”

Oh Good Lord :crazy:

Drug 'em, that'll make 'em think clear! lol
Um wow. I can't believe someone would even say what he did.

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#88 Post by Essence_Smith » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:31 am

dali wrote:you just said it yourself. Why can that apply to Hoka but not to black history? What's the difference?
just saying that instead of moving on "some" african americans like to make everything about race when it involves a black person. Maybe if they didn't bring race into it so much there would be less racism? I mean if "some" keep drawing attention to something than people are gonna give attention to it. If you ignore something (like a persons race) people don't notice it so much.

I live in SoCal and it's like how the mexicans (they're mexicans because they are from Mexico, not "latinos" because I don't even know where Latin America is lol) like to make the DUI checkpoints into some sort of racial profiling thing to weed out the illegals when in reality they are just DUI checkpoints like they have everywhere else in the country.

BTW, I was born in Baltimore so "blacks" are not foreign to me but I truly believe I am somewhat racist because I was brought up that way by my Father.

I think most kids are neutral on the race subject when they are born and it's what they learn along the way that makes them racist or not.

My dilemma is I know I'm like this but I can't shake it because it was ingrained in me at a young age and it seems hard to teach old dogs new tricks. This is why racism will never go away.It will keep being "taught", all we can hope is the degree to which it is taught lessens over time.
If you are unaware of the VAST inequities that exist to this very day in so called african-american communities as a direct result of slavery, then I almost feel sorry for you...ignoring something that is right in front of your face or dismissing a situation that has left scars on all generations that have come before it because you feel it happened a "long time ago" is downright silly...you can't just get over a situation where your ancestors were systematically broken down for 400 odd years...families were separated, customs, religion and history were lost, etc and people still hold some of the same ideas about black people that existed then to this day...again my view is that if there were a stronger emphasis on what is sadly referred to as "black history" in our educational structure it'd go a long way to help EVERYONE put the situation that existed and exists today in perspective...if I don't know about the history of the Irish than all I have to go on are TV, movies, hearsay and the fleeting interactions I may have with those people in the course of a day...fortunately I grew up in a VERY diverse situation where my next door neighbor was an irish man who had the thickest accent and grew his own vegetables in his yard, etc. He was a great neighbor and I grew up playing with his grandkids from Ireland...If I hadn't been exposed to that I may have developed a different, less informed set of ideas about that group of people...

I have been fortunate to have come across people who have been friendly and unfriendly across all walks of life, etc...Its taught me to never look at one person as a representative of an entire group of people...you could be any color from anywhere in the world and be an asshole or have a heart of gold...people are still individuals and I judge them as such...

I am glad you have an understanding that perhaps the ideas you hold about different groups of people because of your upbringing may not be good ones to have...and I also hope that over time people become more tolerant, understanding and sensitive towards each other in general...but perhaps you can try a little harder to look for people who don't fit into the image you may have in your head...it might gain you a new friend and enrich your life...people are people everywhere you regardless of what they look like or where they're from...

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#89 Post by Hype » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:01 pm

hokahey wrote:
dali wrote:
"I don’t think we are anywhere near giving juries propranolol, but in the longer term, this is the kind of idea we might need to seriously think about.”

Oh Good Lord :crazy:

Drug 'em, that'll make 'em think clear! lol
Um wow. I can't believe someone would even say what he did.
You have an antiquated (19th century) notion of personhood and individuality. Science doesn't have such hangups. :lol: Propanolol is already used to treat PTSD sufferers, and providing permanent relief from trauma cannot possibly be objected to on the grounds that people should just "suck it up and figure that shit out for themselves" because they simply can't. Worries about dystopian mind-control ought to be considered, as should issues of losing track of concepts like individual responsibility and self-control, but we aren't talking about such issues here. We are talking about perpetual problems of the human race that could be eradicated without harm. We don't expect pedophiles to simply "STOP DESIRING TO FUCK CHILDREN!", because we know they can't... So we have tried to find medical ways to control their urges. Why should we think of racism any differently?

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#90 Post by Pandemonium » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:59 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:You have an antiquated (19th century) notion of personhood and individuality. Science doesn't have such hangups. :lol: Propanolol is already used to treat PTSD sufferers, and providing permanent relief from trauma cannot possibly be objected to on the grounds that people should just "suck it up and figure that shit out for themselves" because they simply can't. Worries about dystopian mind-control ought to be considered, as should issues of losing track of concepts like individual responsibility and self-control, but we aren't talking about such issues here. We are talking about perpetual problems of the human race that could be eradicated without harm. We don't expect pedophiles to simply "STOP DESIRING TO FUCK CHILDREN!", because we know they can't... So we have tried to find medical ways to control their urges. Why should we think of racism any differently?
Personally, I'd rather science focus on eradicating mankind's need for religion.

Chuckles aside, racism, religion ....any sort of need to "belong" to a group and exclude others stems from a basic animal/human sense of tribal community. Look at any group of people big or small, from ethnic to religious, to something as small and silly as a rock band fanbase, you'll find an Us vs Them mentality. You want to solve these basic problems, you have to somehow suppress or erase something that's really a part of our DNA dating back millions of years. And more than likely, doing so would fundamentally change what for better or worse, makes us human.

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#91 Post by mockbee » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:16 pm

Yeah, does AS promote improving on human 'normal'? :hs: Sure, child rapists and PTSD, etc. could benefit from chemical treatment, but if you are delving into improving upon 'general human state' via pharmaceuticals...yikes. The only plausible way forward I see with that in terms of normal human condition, is general cognitive behavioral therapy methods. Count me out if behavioral medications become standard issue. :noclue:

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#92 Post by Hokahey » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:02 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote: Worries about dystopian mind-control ought to be considered, as should issues of losing track of concepts like individual responsibility and self-control, but we aren't talking about such issues here.
We're talking about mandatory drugging of jurors, a responsibility that is also mandatory. Are you high on something yourself right now?

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#93 Post by Hype » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:26 pm

mockbee wrote:Yeah, does AS promote improving on human 'normal'? :hs: Sure, child rapists and PTSD, etc. could benefit from chemical treatment, but if you are delving into improving upon 'general human state' via pharmaceuticals...yikes. The only plausible way forward I see with that in terms of normal human condition, is general cognitive behavioral therapy methods. Count me out if behavioral medications become standard issue. :noclue:
I think that most people are stuck thinking about human nature according to traditional Christian conceptions (which are actually neo-Platonic and Stoic, and then later Cartesian, but never mind...) of freedom and responsibility. And I further think that this is one of two conflicting foundations of the modern Liberal tradition. And what's worse, I think that this standard way of thinking about ourselves is the CAUSE of a significant amount of harm in the world.

The objections to "medicalizing" human behaviour are rooted in this way of thinking about ourselves, and I think that this is noble but foolish at best, and harmful at worst. The way in which I think it's noble is that there is a worry about, say, overprescribing very strong personality altering drugs to children, or overlabeling and thus overdiagnosing symptoms which fall within the "normal" range of behaviours (as many suspect is the case with ADHD or Depression). These are genuine worries, but they are not genuine because these disorders don't really exist or because most people should be able to "fix themselves" without it, they are genuine worries because we shouldn't want lazy doctors or to inadvertently cause people to believe things about themselves that aren't true.

However, there is a huge underlying issue, derived from these "folk conceptions" of individual freedom that I mention above, that there is something called "Normal" in which humans, when they fall under that category (which they are supposed to by default) are specially endowed with faculties of free will and responsibility that allow them to escape from the natural causal order of things. The upshot is that we have legal categories which absolve certain individuals of responsibility: insanity, mental retardation; but we aren't sure what to do about borderline cases (e.g., what exactly is 'temporary insanity'? What about children tried as adults? What's going on there?)

Most people seem to believe that, even if there isn't an immaterial Cartesian 'soul', there's something called 'You' that has the responsibility and the freedom, and that any physico-chemical alteration of that must somehow be inherently "bad" or at least worrying. But this, I really honestly think, is simply false. Hopefully I've gestured enough in the direction of the reasons for my thinking this that you can sort of see what I mean... I don't want to overload this post with more information than is readable.

I'm heavily influenced, here, by Skinner's "Beyond Freedom & Dignity" and "Walden Two". The former is probably a quicker read, and the latter is just great.
Last edited by Hype on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#94 Post by Hype » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:30 pm

hokahey wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote: Worries about dystopian mind-control ought to be considered, as should issues of losing track of concepts like individual responsibility and self-control, but we aren't talking about such issues here.
We're talking about mandatory drugging of jurors, a responsibility that is also mandatory. Are you high on something yourself right now?
Requiring that jurors NOT be high or drunk is also mandatory. And it's not all that different. The aim is to have an impartial jury. You can't be totally impartial if you have an implicitly racist disposition.

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#95 Post by LJF » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:01 pm

when something gets this much media, how do they ever find a jury? Do you really think you can find someone in the US that hasn't already decided what they think of Zimmerman?

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#96 Post by chaos » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:50 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:Colbert was talking about this: http://oxfordstudent.com/2012/03/14/hea ... cial-bias/
“Implicit racial bias can occur even in people with a sincere belief in equality. The main finding of our research is that propranolol significantly reduced implicit but not explicit racial bias.”
I understand the correlation that they are attempting to make, but there are so many flaws with these types of tests. As the article indicates they are far from being able to justify messing with someone's subconscious based on the one test discussed.

Here is a link to a site that has over a dozen IAT tests, including one on race.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/d ... atest.html

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dali
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Re: Trayvon Martin

#97 Post by dali » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:06 pm



Are black people their own worst enemy? :nod:

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#98 Post by Xizen47 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:22 pm

lucky he wasn't shot

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Hype
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Re: Trayvon Martin

#99 Post by Hype » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:28 pm

chaos wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:Colbert was talking about this: http://oxfordstudent.com/2012/03/14/hea ... cial-bias/
“Implicit racial bias can occur even in people with a sincere belief in equality. The main finding of our research is that propranolol significantly reduced implicit but not explicit racial bias.”
I understand the correlation that they are attempting to make, but there are so many flaws with these types of tests. As the article indicates they are far from being able to justify messing with someone's subconscious based on the one test discussed.

Here is a link to a site that has over a dozen IAT tests, including one on race.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/d ... atest.html
Yeah I took one of them. And of course they shouldn't give propanolol to juries.. that's nuts. But being against this sort of thing in principle is no better than being a Luddite.

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Re: Trayvon Martin

#100 Post by dali » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:40 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote: And of course they shouldn't give propanolol to juries.. that's nuts. But being against this sort of thing in principle is no better than being a Luddite.
There's a flaw in your arguement that YOU know what is "normal" or "right".

In other words, changing someone's perception or belief with chemicals implies that they are "abnormal" or "incorrect" and that YOU (the provider of said medication) knows what is "normal" and "right" and therefore you are "correcting" them. (eg. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest)

The problem is that what is considered "normal" today may not have been hundreds of years ago or even hundreds of years into the future.

You are merely "medicating" people to "fit" "current" definitions of "normal" or "right", but current definitions may not be empirically correct, as what is considered "normal" is rather subjective.

If you tuly want an "impartial" jury than why don't you give them medication to remove all EMOTION so that their decision can be based on pure logic alone. What if a juror isn't logical to begin with, do you give them chemicals that somehow make them logical (which doesn't even exist).

Courts use the word "peer" for jurors as they recognize that humans carry all sorts of emotional, etc baggage and therefore the best that can be hoped is to be judged by a "peer" (someone WITH flaws like the defendant), not a robot.
Last edited by dali on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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